Blog 36: Spiritual Grandparenting by Jack McQueeney

“You don’t really know how well you are at parenting until you see the third generation.” – Jerry White

 


 

Psalm 78:3-4 says, “For he issued his laws to Jacob; he gave his instructions to Israel. He commanded our ancestors to teach them to their children, so the next generation might know them–even the children not yet born–and they in turn will teach their own children.”

Looking around it’s clear that this is a lost art! Yet it’s very apparent that in order to see the 3rd and 4th generation take root we must ACTIVELY engage in this Psalm 78:3-4 type of spiritual “grandparenting.” If we don’t, I’m afraid we may not see spiritual multiplication take place. 

I recently surveyed a number of close friends who are strong disciplemakers both in and out of The Navigators with a couple of questions: 

  1. What have you seen or experienced hinder the fruit of 3rd and 4th generations from your ministry? 
  2. What causes us not to lean into spiritual grandparenting?
  3. What would most help you in this area in your sphere of influence to ensure generational disciplemaking is happening? 

First off, it was so good to talk and wrestle over this topic with good friends! I really want to keep learning in areas that I believe are critical hinge points in our calling. Secondly, as a “real” grandparent myself (my grandkids call me Opa), I’m learning and seeing things I haven’t seen or caught before about parenting and grandparenting.  

Personally, I had a great model of this in my spiritual Opa, Ron Bennett, who I still spend time with talking over the things I need to grow in… and he keeps asking me questions that so help protect me from mission drift. It would be important to check in with your Timothy to make sure he/she knows what and why you’re modelling this before you actually engage with them. 

Like Jerry White says in an Apprentice Approach Roundtable clip talking about Generations, “You don’t really know how well you are at parenting until you see the 3rd generation.”  

We’re learning a lot through this process and developed an acronym to not only help in our ministry but also to help communicate this concept to others… (I know, but I couldn’t help it!) A.A.R.P.  Yeah, it kind of already fits spiritual grandparenting, doesn’t it?!?  

  1. ASK your spiritual grandchild a question or two… (You may have to pursue this relationship if you’re not in the same city or see each other naturally. Don’t feel weird in doing this, they may be surprised initially but will feel honored that you’re interested in how they’re doing.) How are you experiencing God in His Word? What are you learning about God through prayer? Have you had the opportunity to talk to any of your friends about your faith yet?
  2. AFFIRM their Paul (your Timothy) in their eyes! Ron would say, “Larry is so good at connecting the verses he’s memorizing with the situations he’s finding himself in; has he helped you with that?” We know that this type of affirmation is so important to do with our physical children in front of their kids, even more so with our own spiritual offspring.
  3. REMIND them they are an important part of this Great Commission, a link in the chain that must not be broken! (Help them accept and own this concept, this way of life!)
  4. PRAY!!! How can I be praying for you? This goes unsaid but it’s so vital that we must bathe these dear ones in prayer and view it as a “life or death situation!” The evil one prowls and is out to kill, maim, and destroy. 

Remember, you don’t have to be old to be a spiritual grandparent. I hope this serves you as we try to communicate this all-important aspect of generational disciplemaking to others! If you want to hear first-hand how this plays out, you can check out The Apprentice Approach Podcast Episode #13 when I talk with three generations of young disciplemakers. 

 

The Apprentice Approach is about helping every-day people master the art of disciplemaking and grew out of the fact that…. Many Christians struggle with making disciples, they feel busy, overwhelmed and not qualified. We understand this struggle which is why we created a Bible based framework so any believer can master the art of disciplemaking! One of our outcomes is seeing the folks we engage with walk away saying, “I can do that!” 




Blog 35: Leadership is a choice, not a rank

This is how disciples choose to lead

 


Moral philosopher Matha Nussbaum explains that compassion is more than empathy. Empathy allows someone to imagine what the experience of the sufferer might be like, but compassion goes beyond empathy. Compassion characterized Jesus’s earthly ministry, leading him time and time again to heal or help those suffering. To have compassion is, literally, to “suffer with” someone (“com” meaning “with” and “passion” meaning “suffer”). Compassion involves a “sense of mature judgment and an understanding of the relatedness of life” and “directs our attention to life and the suffering of others.” . . . Charity [agape love] is the bridge between mere empathy and compassion. Charity “orders our lives and our loves toward God and, subsequently, the whole of creation” and “always seeks the best for its beloved.” –On Reading Well, Karen Swallow Prior

If, as 1 John 2:6 states, “whoever claims to live in Him must live as Jesus did,” then as leaders we must lead with compassion. And, as Prior argues, to lead with compassion, we must be willing to suffer with those we lead, always with their best at the forefront of our minds.

Simon Sinek, in his TED Talk “Why Good Leaders Make You Feel Safe,” explains what it looks like to lead with this kind of compassion:

“The only variable [in organizations that do or do not have employees who excel] are the conditions inside the organization, and that’s where leadership matters, because it’s the leader that sets the tone. When a leader makes the choice to put the safety and lives of the people inside the organization first, to sacrifice their comforts and sacrifice the tangible results, so that the people remain and feel safe and feel like they belong, remarkable things happen. . . .

You see, if the conditions are wrong, we are forced to expend our own time and energy to protect ourselves from each other, and that inherently weakens the organization. When we feel safe inside the organization, we will naturally combine our talents and our strengths and work tirelessly to face the dangers outside and seize the opportunities. . . .

This is the reason so many people have such a visceral hatred, anger, at some of these banking CEOs with their disproportionate salaries and bonus structures. It’s not the numbers. It’s that they have violated the very definition of leadership. They have violated this deep-seated social contract. We know that they allowed their people to be sacrificed so they could protect their own interests, or worse, they sacrificed their people to protect their own interests. This is what so offends us, not the numbers. Would anybody be offended if we gave a $150 million bonus to Gandhi? How about a $250 million bonus to Mother Teresa? Do we have an issue with that? None at all. None at all. Great leaders would never sacrifice the people to save the numbers. They would sooner sacrifice the numbers to save the people. . . .

Leadership is a choice. It is not a rank. I know many people at the senior-most levels of organizations who are absolutely not leaders. They are authorities, and we do what they say because they have authority over us, but we would not follow them. And I know many people who are at the bottoms of organizations who have no authority and they are absolutely leaders, and this is because they have chosen to look after the person to the left of them, and they have chosen to look after the person to the right of them. This is what a leader is.”


There is perhaps no better Biblical example (outside of Jesus Himself) of this type of leadership than that of Nehemiah.

After the Babylonian empire conquered Jerusalem and swept its captives to its capital, several Jews rose to prominent positions. Nehemiah was on of these: he served as cupbearer to the Persian King himself. However, he didn’t allow his good fortune to block out the troubles of his people. He actively sought information about his homeland, and when he heard Jerusalem was in disgrace, he wept and fasted and prayed. After seeking the Lord for almost four months, he finally presented his request to return home and rebuild Jerusalem’s walls to the King.

The King not only granted Nehemiah’s request but sent him on his way with letters for safe passage and the gift of wood. Nehemiah — instead of arriving in the pomp and circumstance his position entitled him to — arrived in Jerusalem quietly. He took several days to asses the situation. Then, in a surprising move, Nehemiah did not command Jerusalem’s inhabitants to rebuild the walls by the authority granted to him under the King. Rather, he shared all God had done to pave the way for the wall to be rebuilt, and then he invited the people into the work by identifying as one of them. He said, “You see the trouble we are in. . . . Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, so that we will no longer be a disgrace.” The people saw that Nehemiah cared about their well-being, not just the task. And they accepted Nehemiah’s call to rebuild!

As they started the work, Nehemiah wisely set each family to rebuild the section of the wall closest to their own homes. He understood that they needed to feel safe. Moreover, he helped them understand that they were volunteering their time and resources to something that would truly benefit them personally, not some distant leader on a hill far away. Then, when enemies threatened to attack the people as well as the work, Nehemiah neither scorned nor ignored the peoples’ fear. Rather, he set half the men to serve as guards so that the people could continue their work protected. Most importantly, he himself not only joined in the guard but never changed out of his clothes! He was always on guard, ready to defend his people.

Additionally, these same enemies mocked and derided Nehemiah’s work and leadership. Nehemiah didn’t allow his decisions to be influenced by the opinions of outsiders. Nor did he take out any embarrassment he felt from this on the people, or blame them for what was happening. Rather, he simply presented his thoughts and feelings to the Lord, and trusted Him to work out all the details. Then, he continued to lead as the Lord directed him.

In the same way Nehemiah defended the people from an outside attack, he also wisely defended them from inside division that could destroy them. When the poor could not afford the interest on loans they’d been forced to borrow in order to feed their families, he condemned the actions of the wealthy, again calling them to something higher with an argument based on serving God well. He set the example by offering interest-free loans. Even more impressively, he refused the food lawfully alloted to the governor because it would burden the people. Instead, he devoted himself to the work.

When the work was finished, Nehemiah returned to Babylon to again serve the King. He didn’t see himself as entitled to the position of Governor in Jerusalem. Yet, upon Nehemiah’s return to Persia, the King sent him back to serve as the Governor of Jerusalem, which Nehemiah did faithfully.


SO WHAT DOES NEHEMIAH’S EXAMPLE TEACH US ABOUT GREAT LEADERS?

Great leaders know how to serve excellently and faithfully. Nehemiah would never have been granted his position or his request if these weren’t true of him.

  • Consider this Scripture: Luke 16:10; 19:11-26

 

Great leaders are not eager for advancement. (They don’t see whatever current position they’re in as setting them too far above the needs of others.) Nehemiah didn’t accept the task for its privileges. He was motivated by his compassion for the people struggling; he suffered with them in their disgrace.

  • Consider this Scripture: Luke 17:7-10; 2 Kings 2:1-9

 

Great leaders seek the Lord’s will for the next step forward. They don’t advance themselves, but only what God has put in their hearts. They are continually in prayer.

  • Consider this Scripture: Proverbs 16:9; Romans 12:1-3

 

Great leaders don’t puff themselves up in their authority, and they don’t choose an authoritarian approach. Rather, they invite people into the work by sharing the vision God grants, laying biblical truth as a foundation to move from, and by identifying as one of them.

  • Consider this Scripture: Philippians 2:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:19-23

 

Great leaders don’t just identify with the people with their words. Rather, they lead as they work alongside the people.

  • Consider this Scripture: 1 Corinthians 3:8-10; 2 Samuel 11

 

Great leaders understand what motivates the people they lead; they don’t scorn or condemn those motives, but rather figure out how to best incorporate the peoples’ God-given gifts and talents to use by inspiring the people to move the work forward.

  • Consider this Scripture: 1 Corinthians 12; Exodus 18:13-27

 

Great leaders don’t allow anyone’s opinions to dictate their decisions, and they don’t allow shame to provoke responses. Most importantly, they never blame those they lead for any perceived failure on their part.

  • Consider this Scripture: 1 Corinthians 4:1-5; Ephesians 4:31-32

 

Great leaders don’t see their leadership positions as license to accept everything the position entitles them to because, like Paul, they understand that not everything that is permissible is also beneficial. Rather, they are always, always thinking about whether or not their choices will build their people up or put a heavy burden on them.

  • Consider this Scripture: 1 Corinthians 10:23; Romans 15:1-3

 

Great leaders don’t cling to their positions of leadership, but rather step aside when their time comes. They understand the work is God’s, not theirs, and will faithfully carry out what God has entrusted to their care: no more, no less.

  • Consider this Scripture: John 13:1-3; Philippians 1:21-24

 


QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER FOR APPLICATION:

  • When I hear the struggles of others, does my heart go to God in prayer and fasting, with compassion? Does this compassion move me towards action or just high emotion?* (Consider the above quote.)
  • What is the work I am called to do? Am I prepared now? How am I preparing myself for future work?
  • When the Lord puts something on my heart, am I willing to wait on Him to show me what action to take?
  • Do I let others’ opinions affect my calling and choices? What is my first response when I am mocked or scorned?
  • How are my prayers mirrored in my actions, and vice-versa?
  • How do I respond to peoples’ fears and insecurities?
  • Am I always equipped for a (spiritual) attack? (Ephesians 6:10-18)
  • How do I respond when I see injustice?
  • Where do I expect to be served instead of taking the time to serve or not burden others? Do I place love for God ahead of even my comforts? What “little luxuries” do I insist on?
  • In persecution, do I pray for relief and release or the for the boldness and strength to continue?
  • Does my leadership lead to renewed devotion to God and rejoicing in Him?
  • How can I help those I disciple balance awareness of sin with living in grace, forgiveness, and joy?
  • Do I hold the work the Lord has given me with an open or closed hand?
  • Do I see the people I invest in as a temporary investment or as a life-long work?



Podcast 020: “The 3 Essentials for Every Leader” (part 2) with Terry Cook

“…Initially, you think, ‘How did they miss it?’ But they didn’t miss it. We miss it. Because John 13, while a great passage, is not the metaphor – not the example – of what leaders are to do. It’s an example of who leaders are. Leaders have to have that servant heart first and foremost to do whatever the Father asks them to do – whether it’s washing the disciples’ feet or riding into Jerusalem through the accolades of people who shouted, ‘King!’ Whatever end of the spectrum you want – the Father – wants you to be on, a leader who has a servant’s heart is willing to do that.” (Terry Cook)

 


Welcome to The Apprentice Approach Podcast, Episode 020! In today’s conversation, we’re back with Terry Cook, author, speaker, coach, facilitator, and expert on leadership. He’s been in full-time ministry for over 45 years, is a small business owner, husband, father, and grandpa. Terry’s also the founder of the Lead Develop Care Model, which is why, when it comes to the topic of “leadership,” we’re talking to him!

If you missed our last episode, I want to encourage you to go back and listen to it – Terry shared one of the biggest keys to leadership – the leadership people want to follow – so you don’t want to miss it! (Click here for Episode 019)

In today’s episode (part two of our series on leadership), we ask Terry Cook:

  • What are the things we need in order to lead others generationally?
  • How do you (Terry) tangibly live with one foot on both sides: “discipleship” and “leadership”?
  • What are the trends you’re seeing in “coaching” and how is that different from the LDC Model?
  • Where do you begin? What suggestions do you have for our leaders?

 

First and foremost, I have to remember I am a disciple of Christ. Even though I am a leader and a developer, first and foremost, I am a disciple of Christ…. I think practically, we never separate those two: leadership and discipleship. That, as I mentioned, first and foremost we’re disciples and so we should always be looking for those opportunities. Someone asked me, years ago, specifically this question. I said to him, ‘Well, as a leader and developer I’m always thinking of “The Triple A.” You know, when you think of the “Triple A Association” and that is: A non-Christian, a young Christian, and a -an- older Christian. That even as a leader and developer, I’m always looking for: Is there at least one non-Christian that I’m involved with? Is there one young Christian that I’m helping to learn how to fall in love with Jesus through the basics of discipleship? And, is there a bit of an older Christian that I’m helping to equip to become a disciplemaker? And I don’t do all three of those necessarily at the same time. But, I’m always trying to stay in the mix of that so that I don’t get so bogged down in just working with Christian leaders (or even non-Christian leaders) that I end up forgetting this other key aspect of who I am.”

 

Join us for part two of our conversation on leadership with Lead Develop Care Model founder Terry Cook! You can also find more about the Lead Develop Care Model, including their blog, resources, trainings, and contact at www.leaddevelopcare.com

 

P.S. If the idea of ripple-effect disciplemaking is a topic you want to learn more about – or, if you want more resources on the topics of personal discipleship, marriage/parenting/family, or being a disciplemaker – head over to our website www.theapprenticeapproach.org And, if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

 

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Podcast 019: “The 3 Essentials for Every Leader” (part 1) with Terry Cook

“What are the core elements, out of all the things a leader can do, what are the three that they must do? We found that the Lead Develop Care [model] – leading others, developing them, and then providing the care that they all need – encapsulates all the critical things that a leader must do, and we wanted to help them get that and also understand what that meant” (Terry Cook).

 


Welcome to The Apprentice Approach Podcast, Episode 019! In today’s conversation, we’re talking with Terry Cook, author, speaker, coach, facilitator, and expert on leadership. He’s been in full-time ministry for over 45 years, is a small business owner, husband, father, and grandpa. Terry’s also the founder of the Lead Develop Care Model, which is why, when it comes to the topic of “leadership,” we’re talking to him!

 

In today’s episode (part one of a two-part series on leadership), we ask Terry Cook:

  • What do leaders actually do? (breaking down the Shepherd Model)
  • What is the Lead Develop Care Model*?
  • What are the primary responsibilities of a leader? (has that changed over the years?)
  • Why commit to developing as a leader?
  • And, whose job is it to develop my leadership? (my leader or me?)

 

We felt like what leaders really needed was not just another exhortation to ‘be a godly leader,’ as critically important as that is, not just an exhortation to, you know, ‘walk with Jesus,’ as critically important as that is as well. What they needed is, what we came up with, what we called a ‘framework for the practice of leadership.’ When you go into the office on Monday or Tuesday, what do you do? We felt like leaders didn’t have a framework. It’s really similar to what Dawson Trotman [founder of The Navigators] did with The Wheel Illustration. You know, out of all the things that are involved in discipleship, is there one key framework that kind of summarizes the core components of discipleship? And as Dawson studied John chapter 15 and came up with the six elements of The Wheel, it just helps all of us know what we need to be working on today. And so, that’s why we felt the need to establish a leadership focus to give them a framework* that would enable them to know what to do – not just what to be – but also what to do to actually lead others effectively.

 

Join us for part one of our conversation on leadership with LDC Model founder Terry Cook! You can also find more from the Lead Develop Care Model, including their blog, resources, trainings, and contact at www.leaddevelopcare.com

 

P.S. If the idea of ripple-effect disciplemaking is a topic you want to learn more about – or, if you want more resources on the topics of personal discipleship, marriage/parenting/family, or being a disciplemaker – head over to our website www.theapprenticeapproach.org And, if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

 

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Blog 34 The Transformational Pattern of Discipleship

A Guest Blog Post by Ron Bennett
To read the full, original post “The Pattern of Discipleship,” click here.


“And do not be conformed (external) to this world, but be transformed (internal) by the renewing of your mind…” (Romans 12:2).

Conformation is the external (behavior) imitation while transformation is the inner (heart and mind) reformation.

We are told not to be conformed to the world, but neither should we be simply conformed to Christ in external behavior only.  Our transformation must go below the water line of behavior to touch our heart and soul.

An iceberg illustrates the complexity of our outer and inner lives.  The above (visible) part is held up and supported by the bigger invisible part.  Jesus emphasized this important distinction in Luke 6:45:

“A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart.”

The King James Version says, “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”

As men and women who are followers of Christ, our Imitation of Christ is to go beyond doing acts of kindness (valuable as it is), to actually becoming kind in heart.  Imitation is the transformation of our inner values, convictions, and principles so that good behavior is not just action tacked on when we think about it, but rather what naturally comes from our newly transformed heart and mind.

This transformation process produces behavior that is so consistent as to become predictable.  When I am asked to give a character reference for a potential employee, I know I am not being asked if I have just observed certain behaviors.  They are asking if I have observed behavior so consistent as to become predictive of future actions.  In other words, is the behavior more than an act?  Is it genuinely coming from the treasury of a good heart?

Emulation may be a better word than imitation.  Imitation can refer to a cheap copy, something poorly done, or a knockoff.  Emulation, however, implies being genuine all the way through.  In our technical world imitation refers to a computer running another computer’s “apps” (software programs), while emulation refers to running another computer’s inner operating system.

Image bearing is not only deep, it is comprehensive as Paul writes “…that you may prove what the will of God is” (Romans 12:2).  Genuine emulation goes beyond obeying the biblical ethical code.  It includes alignment to the whole will of God.

If I said I wanted to be like George Washington but all I knew about him was that he was the first president of the United States and the commander of the Continental Army, you would rightfully suspect I was not serious.  If I were serious, I would read about what he said and did as well as what others said about him.  I would want to study his speeches to learn what he valued.  I would want to know his habits, practices, and mannerisms.  Can we be serious about reflecting Christ when we know so little about Him?  Are we satisfied with just knowing that He is our Savior and King?

Since Christ is to be the “first born among many brethren”; He is our elder brother.  To emulate Him we need to comprehend His:

  • Character
  • Behavior
  • Values
  • Teaching
  • Habits
  • Mission
  • Purposes
  • Desires, etc.

Although the gospels give a limited account of the life of Christ, we have been given sufficient knowledge to understand His life Pattern.  The Scripture also gives us the power to discern where we fall short in our inner character and motivations (2 Tim. 3:16-17; Hebrews 4:12).  With this in mind, one practical way to expand our understanding of that Pattern is to read the gospels through the lens of one of the above concepts.  For example, read Matthew looking for His values (stated and implied).  Then read Mark looking for His mission or purposes, etc.  Reading with a particular lens can open new insights into the One we are to emulate.

When Paul encountered Christ on the road to Damascus (Acts 22), he asked two questions:

  • Who are you, Lord?  and
  • What should I do?

The second question is an outgrowth of the first.  We are called to follow the person of Christ not just a creed.  As an apprentice, the more we understand and emulate WHO Christ is, the more we will be transformed and live a life in alignment with His will.  Paul’s two questions should be at the heart of our apprenticeship today.

 

This excerpt is used with permission by Ron Bennett. To read the full article and to learn more about Ron Bennett, click here. You can also catch more from Ron on the topic of Growing in Spiritual Maturity on The Apprentice Approach Podcast, click here.

 




Podcast 018: “Growing to Spiritual Maturity” (part 2) with Ron Bennett

[On how we measure success] “So, if I view keeping people dependent on my input as my success factor, then I won’t tend to release them. But, if I see that maturity and my end-goal is that they learn how to learn for themselves and teach themselves or find the resources, then I can celebrate when they no longer need me” (Ron Bennett).

 


The Apprentice Approach Podcast, Episode 018 is part two in our newest series on spiritual maturity – how do we know (Biblically) what it looks like, how can we pursue it, and how can we cultivate it in others.

In today’s episode, we’re jumping back into our conversation with Ron Bennett – author of multiple books*, blogger, senior staff member of The Navigators, and authority on disciplemaking. Ron has led discipleship ministries on university campuses, military bases, in churches, and in the workplace. He had a background in Aerospace Engineering and the military before coming on staff with The Navigators… but one of the most important things you need to know is that Ron is my spiritual grandfather (which we’ll get into in the podcast). Ron is a wealth of knowledge and brings practical experience and application to our conversation.

Because it’s a process and because I know that the process involves a number of stages of maturity (this also helps me in my thinking), that I think in terms of stages. When I meet, I know that I’m picking them up at a certain stage of their journey. If I have those stages – those processes – in mind, then I can interface with them appropriately with where they are and take them – help them – move to the next stage” (Ron Bennett).

Join us for part two of our conversation with Ron Bennett as we focus on transference – moving deeper into the topic of spiritual maturity, specifically talking about cultivating maturity in others. We hear from Ron on:

  • How to identify what people need in order to grow in spiritual maturity and how to get them there
  • Practical ways to prepare people for spiritual “parenthood”
  • How does Ron “push them out of the nest,” so to speak, so that they begin to disciple others?
  • How to protect them from relying on YOU as their spiritual source
  • What happens “after” discipleship?

 

I think ‘success’ then becomes when people learn how to go to the Scripture, feed themselves from Scripture, and they never become self-reliant, they become interdependent on the Body, but there is a self-ability to feed themselves and hear the voice of God… and they know how to do that” (Ron Bennett).

 

Want to know more about the spiritual maturity “stages” Ron mentions? Click here for the “Spiritual Maturity Profile” resource.

Interested in learning more about The Wheel Illustration Ron mentions? Click here for The Navigators’ Wheel Illustration and its applications.

 

*For more from Ron Bennett, visit his blog “The Adventure of Discipleship” including his books:

 

P.S. If the idea of ripple-effect disciplemaking is a topic you want to learn more about – or, if you want more resources on the topics of personal discipleship, marriage/parenting/family, or being a disciplemaker – head over to our website www.theapprenticeapproach.org And, if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

 

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Blog 33 Facing Opposition

Biblical Examples of God’s Calling and the Real Responses of Both Sides

Many of our blogs and resources are about helping you develop those you are discipling. But what about YOU? What happens when we (as disciplemakers) face challenge or opposition with those we’re discipling? Does God provide insight into how we should respond when we see our apprentice has a clear calling from Him, but he or she doesn’t see it? What if they’re fearful, anxious, or even bitter?


Last blog, we explored what God’s calling can look like on a person’s life. We ended with the question, “What happens when someone wants to say no or reject a calling?”

We believe that this is a timely question in this present age. It’s not easy to follow Jesus in all godliness and holiness, and it can be tempting to want to say no to the tasks to which He calls us.

After you’ve worked through last blog’s study on calling, we’d encourage you to take time to look at the stories of each of the characters below. With each character, consider:

  1. To what is God calling them, either by a direct call or through the circumstances He has placed them in?
  2. How do they respond?
  3. How does God respond?
  4. What is the result of their response?
  5. Is there a promise or a truth God gives? If so, how can you apply that same promise to your own life?

 

Moses:

When the initial call feels too hard

  1. Exodus 3:1-4:12
  2. Exodus 4:14
  3. Exodus 4:15-15:21; Deuteronomy 34

Elijah:

When living out our calling feels too overwhelming

  1. 1 Kings 18
  2. 1 Kings 19:1-10
  3. 1 Kings 19:11-21; 2 Kings 2:1-12; Matthew 17:1-13 (find other occurrences of his name in the New Testament to further consider his lasting reputation)

Michal:

When we let the bitterness of circumstances choke out our ability to live out our calling

  1. 1 Samuel 18:24-27; 19:11-14; 25:42-44; 2 Samuel 3:12-16
  2. 2 Samuel 6:12-16
  3. 2 Samuel 6:20-23

John Mark:

When we fail in following God’s calling

  1. Acts 12:5-12; 12:24-13:5
  2. Acts 15:37-38
  3. Acts 15:36-41; 2 Timothy 4:11; Colossians 4:10; 1 Peter 5:13; Philemon 24; read the “Authorship” note in a study Bible about the book of Mark

 

Remember, walking with Jesus for life means obedience for the long-haul. Often, that means saying one big initial “yes” to Jesus’ calling, and then a lifetime of reaffirmations, of millions of little “yeses” every single day. We’d encourage you to close your study by reading Scripture that we’ve found encouraging in helping us through all those little “yeses.”

  • Romans 5:1-5
  • 1 Corinthians 15:58
  • 2 Corinthians 9:6-8
  • Galatians 6:9
  • Ephesians 4:1-7
  • 2 Thessalonians 1:3-12
  • 2 Timothy 1:6-14
  • Hebrews 12:1-3
  • James 1:2-4
  • 2 Peter 1:3-11

 




Podcast 017: “Growing to Spiritual Maturity” (part 1) with Ron Bennett

While there are valid differences of perspective on what constitutes discipleship, we define Christian discipleship as a process that takes place within accountable relationships over a period of time for the purpose of bringing believers to spiritual maturity in Christ. Biblical examples suggest that discipleship is both relational and intentional, both position and process…” (The Eastbourne Consultation on Discipleship, 1999)

 


The Apprentice Approach Podcast, Episode 017 is part one in our newest series on spiritual maturity – how do we know (Biblically) what it looks like, how can we pursue it, and how can we cultivate it in others.

In today’s episode, we’re talking with Ron Bennett – author of multiple books*, blogger, senior staff member of The Navigators, and authority on disciplemaking. Ron has led discipleship ministries on university campuses, military bases, in churches, and in the workplace. He had a background in Aerospace Engineering and the military before coming on staff with The Navigators… but one of the most important things you need to know is that Ron is my spiritual grandfather – which we’ll get into in the podcast.

Ron is a wealth of knowledge, but more important than his knowledge and published books is the practical experience and application he brings to our conversation.

“Discipleship is a process of pursuing – both knowing, reflecting, and sharing Christ. Those form more of the ‘coordinates’ of our journey; a journey that’s a lifetime of adventure! And so those coordinates never change. They provide a ‘fix’ for my spiritual GPS… if I get off track, like my phone it will give me directions back to my destination. So, part of it – to make it work – is to lock in the coordinates in my GPS in order to keep focused and moving in that direction. So, I think often times in our Christian culture, we look more at discipleship as an ‘event’ or ‘course’ rather than a lifestyle that will consume us for the rest of our life. So, I have concluded that my journey for the rest of my life is to pursue those three aspects: 1) to know Christ in an ever-deeper way; 2) to reflect Christ as He transforms me more to look like Him; 3) to share Christ in whatever ways I can to expand the Kingdom. And those are not places I’ll arrive, but direction I’m headed. So in that sense, ‘maturity’ is simply an on-going process of going deeper in understanding and going through those three things” (Ron Bennett).

Join us for part one of our conversation with Ron as we cover these (and more) questions:

  • What does “spiritual maturity” look like?
  • Why does discipleship have to take place within accountable relationships?
  • What happens when accountability is missing in intentional relationships?
  • How do you bring balance to both relationship and intentionality that brings accountability?
  • What do you (Ron) actually and practically do when you meet with someone?

 

Maturity is sort of a moving target, but for the stage we’re in, in our Christian journey, there ought to be some indicators that we’re making progress” (Ron Bennett).

Want to know more about what those spiritual maturity “indicators” are – throughout the various stages of the Christian journey? Click here for the “Spiritual Maturity Profile” resource.

 

*For more from Ron Bennett, visit his blog “The Adventure of Discipleship” including his books:

 

P.S. If the idea of ripple-effect disciplemaking is a topic you want to learn more about – or, if you want more resources on the topics of personal discipleship, marriage/parenting/family, or being a disciplemaker – head over to our website www.theapprenticeapproach.org And, if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

 

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Blog 32 Committing to Commissioning

Most of us know The Great Commission – what most of us still struggle with is understanding what God is calling us to specifically in order to carry that out.


We want to make disciples, but sometimes it’s tricky to know where we should truly invest ourselves to move the Kingdom forward.

Thankfully, God is not a God of confusion but of clarity and peace. He calls us into His presence and into His service – sometimes in general ways, and sometimes in ways that are more specific.

The best way to learn how to discern His voice and hear how and where He is calling us to is to study the other ways He’s called people in His Word. 

We’ve put together a short, 4-part Bible Study for you to mine God’s Word about the concept of calling!

PART 1:

There are several people in the Bible who have received their callings in rather spectacular ways: Moses, Gideon, Samuel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Paul, to name a few. Take time to study one or more of these stories. (Suggested references below.) As you study these stories, ask yourself:

  1. How does God call them? (Are there any patterns in how He calls people?)
  2. To what does He call them? (Patterns?)
  3. How do they respond? (Patterns?)
  4. What is our responsibility if we never receive a calling like they did?

Suggested References:

  • Genesis 12:1-8
  • Exodus 3:1-4:18
  • Deuteronomy 31:23, 34:9, Joshua 1
  • Judges 6:11-7:25
  • 1 Samuel 3
  • 1 Samuel 16:1-13
  • 1 Kings 19
  • Jeremiah 1
  • Ezekiel 1-3 (or 7)
  • Esther 4
  • Luke 5:1-11
  • Acts 9:1-31
  • 2 Timothy 2:2

PART 2: 

There are three main Greek words used for calling in the New Testament. Take time to do word studies on each of these words. What do they reveal about calling? Are there different types of calling?

  1. kaleo (start: 2 Timothy 1: 9 [first “call”]; Romans 9:25)
  2. klesis (start: 2 Timothy 1:9 [second “call”]; Hebrews 3:1)
  3. kletos (start: Romans 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2)

PART 3:

Take time to examine the beginning of each of Paul’s letters (Romans – Philemon). You’ll note that over and over again, Paul connects his calling to his identity. Consider:

  1. How would you explain your identity in Christ? (Do you really believe it?)
  2. How does your understanding of your identity in Christ impact the way you see God?
  3. How does your understanding of your identity in Christ impact the way you see calling?

PART 4:

Hopefully by this point in your Bible study, you’ll note that some people receive very specific callings, while there are also many, many general callings throughout the Bible (e.g. Matthew 28:18-20; John 15:4).

In many ways, understanding this principle is similar to understanding and claiming the promises of God.

Take time to reflect on this flowchart on Claiming God’s Promises* by Eagle Lake Camps of The Navigators, and then consider:

  1. What general callings have I accepted? Rejected?
  2. Is there anything God is calling me to specifically right now?
  3. What happens when someone want(s) to say no or reject a calling? (We’ll get into this in our next blog!)

We hope this study helps you better understand God’s calling in your life and, as Ephesians 4:1 says, “to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.”

 

*“Claiming God’s Promises” flowchart is used with permission by Eagle Lake Camps of The Navigators. Please do not reproduce in any form without written permission from Eagle Lake Camps of The Navigators. For more on claiming God’s promises see Praying Over God’s Promises: The Lost Art of Taking Him at His Word by Tom Yeakley (NAVPRESS, 2015).

 




Blog 31 When Your Love Compels You to Go Through the Roof

How can we have a heart for people? By carrying them to the feet of Jesus.


“We are chosen, to be holy and blameless before him in love; we are redeemed, to be a peculiar people, zealous of good works; we are pardoned and justified, that we may be partakers of larger measures of the divine Spirit for sanctification; we are sanctified, that we may walk in ways of holiness and obedience: no act of divine love that here terminates upon us obtains its proper tendency, issue, and effect, without our holy attendance to God’s word. . . . Love must and will keep the word of God; it inquires wherein the beloved may be pleased and served, and, finding he will be so by observance of his declared will, there it employs and exerts itself. . . . He who is governed by such love approves his light to be good and genuine. He sees the foundation and reason of Christian love; he discerns the weight and value of the Christian redemption; he sees how meet it is that we should love those whom Christ hath loved. . . . Christian love teaches us highly to value our brother’s soul, and to dread every thing that will be injurious to his innocence and peace.” -Matthew Henry, commentary on 1 John 2

The key to the Great Commission is the transfer of authority: Jesus grants us His Holy Spirit to make disciples as we go along, living our lives for Him in holiness and obedience, according to His Word. And we want to obey Him in this! Our love for our Savior prompts us to think about how we can please Him, and knowing the Great Commission assures us that one of the best ways to please Him is to make His kindness known, and to love the people around us as He loves them.

While few would argue this theoretically, many would say it’s hard to know how to go about this practically. We’ve found that one of the best approaches to find practical ways to love the people around us is to look to the examples in Scripture. One of our current favorite examples? The contrast between the friends who literally go through the roof in their love for their paralyzed friend by bringing him to the feet of Jesus, and the Pharisees’ response to Jesus in Luke 5:17-32.

 

First, let’s look at the FRIENDS:

Despite the way most people viewed the sick and crippled in Jesus’ day as suffering just punishment for sin (cf. John 9:2), the men who brought the parapalygic man to Jesus considered themselves his friends. They didn’t shy away from him or see his infirmity as proof of his sin: they saw him as more than his disability, more than his circumstances, and more than what current culture told them they should judge him by. They deeply cared about his well-being; in their eyes, his life had value and purpose. They were willing to go to great lengths to ensure he knew it.

  • Application questions to consider:
    • How often do we see people as merely their physical appearance? (Think especially of those marginalized by our society – the homeless, for example.)
    • How often do we see people and judge them by their circumstances, culture, or our own perceptions rather than by Biblical standards?

Moreover, these friends didn’t just “kind of hope” for their friend’s good, but they actively planned for it and determinedly carried it out. While everyone else was rushing to the house to surround it, they sacrificed the time that would make it more likely they would get in to the house to see Jesus for themselves, moving against the flow of people instead, to gather their friend who could not reach Jesus on his own and carried him to the house to see Jesus.

  • Application questions to consider:
    • When we bring people before Jesus in prayer or reach out to minister to or serve them through words or actions, is it just a fly-by thought? Or have we intentionally prayed through and decided for whom we will stand in the gap?
    • Are we willing to strategically plan a course of action (with the same intention, if not more, than we do when we plan a social media post or vacation) even when it means sacrificing something of our own (our time, our wants, etc.)? Do we have the discipline to carry out Jesus’ kind of ministry – even when it gets awkward, hard, or personal?

Additionally, even though it could have seemed impossible for their friend to walk again, they deeply believed that Jesus could and would accomplish the healing necessary, and that Jesus was their friend’s very best hope. It’s interesting that there is no record of the man asking for their help, which is such a beautiful indicator of just how deeply these friends were to getting the man to Jesus.

  • Application questions to consider:
    • How often do we hesitate to share Jesus with someone or pray on their behalf because part of their identity or circumstances just seem too insurmountable even for Jesus to heal or redeem? Or struggle to believe that God longs to show us His redemptive power?
    • How often do we hesitate to bring people to Jesus because they haven’t initiated or asked for help first, and we think we just don’t have enough to offer of ourselves (because we forget we’re really bringing them to Jesus), and so we quit before we’ve even started? (Consider Exodus 3, especially v. 11-12)

They didn’t give up when it got hard and complications like crowds arose, but pressed in to the hard together to carry their friend to Jesus. They cared enough for their friend to persevere and believed enough in Jesus to push towards Him no matter the obstacles, even if it meant destroying a roof.

  • Application questions to consider:
    • When is it easiest for you to get discouraged when you are interceding on someone’s behalf? How can you press forward? (Our favorite verses on not giving up: Hebrews 12:1-2 with 1 John 3:1; Romans 5:3-5; Romans 8:28; Philippians 4:6-7; John 16:33)
    • Who are your “fellow friend carriers”? Remember, we cannot do this alone! Jesus promises that where two or three or gathered, there He is with them in Matthew 18:20. Take advantage of this promise so that you have friends standing shoulder-to-shoulder with you. Then, when you get discouraged, they’re there to help! And you can return the favor when they get overwhelmed.

It’s interesting to note that they didn’t have a back-up plan to pull their friend back up to the roof if Jesus rejected him; they went all in, putting all their hope in Christ by casting their friend at Jesus’ feet with no way to pull him back. Thankfully for us, Jesus never rejects us when we throw ourselves at His feet. He shows his authority and subdues our fears with HIS authority and loving-kindness.

  • Application questions to consider:
    • Where do you hold something back in reserve just in case Jesus doesn’t answer your prayers the way you hope?
    • What holds you back from fully casting yourself at Jesus’ feet and on His mercy? Or, if you are able to do this, how can you equip others to do the same?

Additionally, it’s beautiful to note that it was because of the friends’ faith along with the man’s faith that the man is healed. Verse 20 reads, “When Jesus saw their faith, he said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven.’” It’s so easy to forget that we’re part of a body. When one is hurting, we all should be hurting; and when one has strong faith, that should impact all of us to perceive something.

  • Application questions to consider:
    • Stop here and take a moment to reflect. Really reflect. Is there a friend you need to have faith for? Is there a friend you need to pray for that needs to see the “friendship of Jesus” and be forgiven and set free?
    • What about you? Have you had a friend who has gone to these lengths for you and for your spiritual wholeness in Jesus? Have you thought about thanking him/her?

 

Now, let’s look at the PHARISEES:

This is the Pharisees’ first (recorded) interaction with Jesus, and like the crowds, they’re drawn because of the miracles they’ve heard Jesus perform. However, unlike the crowds, they’re not there to participate, but rather to sit on the sidelines and judge.

    • How often do we ignore the root of what’s going on in the lives of the people around us because we are distracted by surface activity and believe we’re able to wisely judge that activity as godly or ungodly?
    • Is there an area in your own life that you are “sitting on the sidelines” or simply being part of the crowd in a room? Is there an area in your life (or the life of a friend) in which Jesus is asking you to boldly believe (not simply judge)?
  • They’re “in awe” of him until Jesus chooses Levi and his fellow tax collectors as his dinner hosts right after this miracle. They see the ‘sick’ – the tax collectors and sinners – as contemptible and beneath them.
    • When are we tempted to set ourselves above – as more godly – those around us because our life choices seem to have produced better results?
    • Are we tempted to believe health, wealth, or comfort are our due because we’ve made the “right” choices? Do we struggle to believe God is good when He’s not giving us what we think we’re entitled to because we’ve served him the “right” way?
  • Their “awe” quickly turns to awful complaining and eventually contempt.
    • Too easily and quickly our “awe” goes from awesome to awful. Is there an area in your own life you’ve quickly turned from awe to complaining?
    • Why do you think the Pharisees and teachers of the law went from being part of the crowd and in awe of Jesus when he was performing miracles and healing to complaining to his disciples when he was sitting with tax collectors and sinners? What do you think they were missing? Was there something in their culture, circumstances, or circle of influence that was affecting them?

 

In Conclusion: 

Finally, let’s consider these contrasting characters in Luke 5:17-32 one more time: the friends and the pharisees. Can you place yourself in this story? Where do YOU stand?

  • Are you in the house, or standing skeptically outside?
  • Are you with the crowd? If so, are you in awe and looking for more of Jesus’ power in your life? Or, are you complaining about the decisions Christ is making?
  • Or, are you going through the roof, bringing a friend and finding any way you can to get close to the Savior – knowing He is the best (and sometimes unconventional looking) plan for restoration, reconciliation, and redemption?

Are you ready to bring your friends before Jesus but just aren’t sure how? Here are some super practical ideas to get intentional:

      • Choose a specific verse to pray over them nightly
      • Call them once a week to check in
        • Tips for when you check in:
          • ask them about their week, follow-up from the week before (what you’ve been praying for them)
          • take notes/write it down so you don’t forget & can be SPECIFIC when you check in next week
      • Invite them to dinner once a week/month/on holidays when you know they might otherwise be alone so you can hear about their life and listen for other specific ways you can serve them

Last but not least, do you feel prepared to share your faith – the reason you have the hope you have (I Peter 3:15)? If not, check out this great Navigator Resource “Preparing Your Testimony” or this great blog post. We’re praying you’re able to “go through the roof” in your love for your friends this week!




Podcast 016: “Marriage and Disciplemaking” (part 2) with Terry and Leah Green

“Our life is full, but we’re not pressed into busyness. When we left the marketplace, we decided we were going to move from being ‘productive’ to ‘fruitful’ and let the Lord teach us what the difference was in that.” – Leah Green

 


The Apprentice Approach Podcast, Episode 016 is part two in our newest series on marriage, family, and disciplemaking! (click here for part one)

We had the privilege of talking with Terry and Leah Green who have been happily married for 54 years, are currently in full-time ministry, and hold all kinds of wisdom from their life-experiences in being small business owners, parents, great-grandparents, and of course, following Christ.

They’ve led Marriage GetAway, a marriage retreat at the Glen Eyrie Conference Center for 14 of the retreat’s 25 years and have been on staff with The Navigators since 1995 …basically, they’re the most humble experts you’ll ever meet!

We asked Terry and Leah, knowing they’ve discipled others in every stage of their own lives: “What have you done to protect yourself from being overwhelmed, moving out from a position of health (because we can all get unraveled pretty quick, it doesn’t take long at all) – what have you done to protect yourself and your marriage from getting to that point?”

Join our conversation with Terry and Leah, as they answer that question and also share ideas (besides just saying “no”) on how to protect your marriage and your own personal walk with God. We also talk about how we can move from productivity to fruitfulness; and finally, what does it look like to be a Christian marriage verses two Christians being married?

“Wherever you are today, hold on loosely to that.. God may want to do something more with your life, not only as an individual but as a couple, and give him the opportunity. But, you have to be looking for that and searching, God: What is it you’re doing and how can we be involved?” – Terry Green

P.S. If the idea of ripple-effect disciplemaking is a topic you want to learn more about – or, if you want more resources on the topic of marriage, parenting, and being a disciplemaker – head over to our website www.theapprenticeapproach.org And, if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

 

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Blog 30 On Marriage, Disciplemaking and “the Disciplines” with Leah Green

We asked Leah Green, wife, mother, great-grandmother and co-leader of Marriage GetAway, all the discipleship questions you’ve been looking for real-life answers to!


We have the great privilege to hear from a master disciplemaker today, Leah Green on the topics of disciplemaking and “the disciplines” in the context of marriage. Leah and her husband Terry have been in ministry with The Navigators since 1995 have been the leaders of Marriage GetAway, a marriage retreat at Glen Eyrie, for 14 years! For more on Leah including podcasts and other blog posts, visit www.theapprenticeapproach.org.

 

You and Terry have led Glen Eyrie’s Marriage GetAway retreat for 14 years now – with each year having at least one if not up to six retreats – How do you personally stay fresh in your perspective on God’s view of marriage, our calling in it, and how it can impact others? (Are there any helpful rhythms/patterns/habits you’ve found along the way? How has it looked different in different seasons?)

Leading Marriage GetAway has been refreshing for us – we are convinced that we must live what we share and that what we share is foundational to a healthy marriage. The rhythm is: daily in time in God’s Word and prayer – individually and conversation with each other over what we discover – then time praying over our day and our family and ministry. (Matt. 22:37-40) It has looked different in the seasons with young children, then a working woman in the market place and now in full-time ministry what gives us a very healthy pace – each is part of my shaping and story. God is Sovereign, and I am thankful for the lessons in the journey!

 

Talk to us about what you’ve learned over the years about maintaining personal health and health in your marriage as you’ve poured out for others.

Terry is an outdoors guy, he stays healthy physically and mentally through running, golfing, and fishing. I try to stay healthy through eating well (still working on the exercise disciplines) and interacting with friends and family. We have learned that giving each other freedom to be who we are has brought life and health to our marriage. We are both introverts by nature, but extroverts on demand when we are in ministry – it’s a “God thing” in how comfortable and life-giving it seems for us to reach out to others.

 

In light of the different seasons you’ve been through and demands of owning a business, raising kids, being a wife, mother, friend and disciplemaker: talk to us about how to make wise choices when someone asks you to disciple them – how do you decide who to say “yes” to and who to say “no” to? Are there any defining characteristics you look for?

We both take seriously a request from anyone who wants to be discipled. Our filter in time invested will be how the person responds to some simple assignments. A person who genuinely wants discipleship is hungry, available and teachable. The “yes” or “no” actually is in their response.

 

When you begin a disciplemaking relationship, how do you know where to start?

We spend some time in relational conversation, learning who they are and where they are spiritually. We pray for tools* to offer that will be meaningful and effective springboards for lifelong patterns that can be developed and shared with others.

*Terry and Leah talk more in-depth on some tools they use in The Apprentice Approach Podcast, Episode 015 – click here to listen!

 

There are these things called “the basics” – “old school” Navigator ways – why are they so foundational? Over all these years, are they still just as “alive” or are they now antiquated? How have you seen God work in and through disciplines such as: Scripture memory, prayer, fellowship, and evangelism?

Indeed, some things are timeless! What can change is the method, but not the message. Each of the above disciplines are life-giving (as it says in Deuteronomy 32:47, “These instructions are not mere words — they are your life.”) We think it is so critical to share the “why” of the basics, the motive behind the discipline. We have these basic tools to offer in how to create, correct, & maintain a strong relationship with Christ and fulfill our purpose in this world.

 

Is there anything you typically do during your time with the person you are discipling?

There are incredible Navigator resources that we have used:

  • Growing Strong in God’s Family – excellent in how to begin reading, journaling, memorizing scripture.
  • Lessons on Assurance and Lessons on Christian Living – learning to claim the promises of God
  • The Gentle Art of Discipling Women, by Dana Yeakley – being a disciple/being a disciplemaker. This is a hands-on handbook that one can use if they have never discipled; it’s personal and practical.
  • I also like to have a Quiet Time with my gals, sharing heart-to-heart from what the Holy Spirit revealed to us in the Word. And then praying together.
  • Sometimes it is simply hearing a hurting or frustrated heart – bringing a word of Encouragement, if the Lord leads, and simply caring because this is a person not a project and I want the relationship to be real.

 

What would you say has been the impact of disciplemaking on your life? Why say “yes” to this “Great Commission,” this self-sacrificing, humble, loving and at times demanding calling?

The Great Commission has also been called “The Last Commandment.” It is an act of obedience rather than an option. Because God’s Word is life-giving, it gives life to the disciplemaker as well as the one discipled. There is no joy that compares to bringing one to Christ and/or helping one grow (rooted and grounded in her faith).

 

Anything else? Any stories come to mind or anything you want share or feel like God’s laying on your heart to share with us?

“Where there is a will there is a way!” Terry and I have both engaged in long-distance discipling through telephone conversations or FaceTime as well as actually being with. I’m the FaceTime part of the example – I love being able to see the one I’m talking to and I’m currently meeting with two different women through FaceTime. I would also add that not everyone that we reach out to or expresses a desire to be discipled is a victory story. But, that is not my call to judge. I ask or respond when asked and see what God will do. Eternal friendships have come out of the step of faith and I can trust God with the ones who just weren’t ready or interested. Either way, I’m responsible to live the call and with that comes peace and joy!

 

Looking for more from Leah Green or on the topics of marriage, disciplemaking and different tools to help you with disciplemaking?




Podcast 015: “Marriage and Disciplemaking” (part 1) with Terry and Leah Green

“We decided from the very beginning that love is a choice. We love telling people that 54 years ago we chose the one we love; and, we’ve spent the last 54 years learning to love the one we chose… and that’s day-to-day.” – Leah Green

 


“We decided from the very beginning that love is a choice. We love telling people that 54 years ago we chose the one we love; and, we’ve spent the last 54 years learning to love the one we chose… and that’s day-to-day,” said Leah Green to us when we asked: “Is there a ‘secret’?!”

The Apprentice Approach Podcast, Episode 015 is part one in our newest series on marriage, family, and disciplemaking!

We had the privilege of talking with Terry and Leah Green who have been happily married for 54 years, are currently in full-time ministry, and hold all kinds of wisdom from their life-experiences in being small business owners, parents, great-grandparents, and of course, following Christ.

They led Marriage GetAway, a marriage retreat at the Glen Eyrie Conference Center for 16 of the retreat’s 27 years and have been on staff with The Navigators since 1995 …basically, they’re the most humble experts you’ll ever meet!

Join our conversation with Terry and Leah, talking about some really practical ways they’ve found to maintain perspective, continue making disciplemakers, decide who/when to say “yes” (or “no”) to, and (the best part) do it all alongside the love of your life!

 

P.S. If the idea of ripple-effect disciplemaking is a topic you want to learn more about – or, if you want more resources on the topic of marriage, parenting, and being a disciplemaker – head over to our website www.theapprenticeapproach.org And, if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

 

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Blog 29 Ministry in Marriage

What does “ministry” look like in marriage?

a guest blog post “Marriage Moment” with Terry and Leah Green


We think that ministry in marriage begins with a heart of thankfulness for the life partner we entered into covenant relationship with when we vowed to take him or her for better or worse, in sickness or health, for richer or poorer ~ realizing this promise would be tested over and over until death parts us.

Having said that, maybe we should consider the word “ministry.” The dictionary defines ministry as, “the work or vocation of a minister of religion.” As a result, there often seems to be a limited understanding that ministry is something one does through a church or Christian organization. However, we are learning that ministry in marriage refers to a way of life that begins at home by being an agent of blessing and service to one another.

In Galatians 5:13-14, the Apostle Paul reminds us, “You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’.”

It was quite a revelation to us when we discovered that, as husband and wife, we are our closest neighbors. There are many opportunities in any given day to minister to each other. Here are just a few ways that have made a difference in our marriage:

  1. We have learned the joy of accepting one another’s differences – and even in celebrating them as we grow in understanding each other better and why God has brought two very different people together.
  2. We have also found keys in how to express our love in serving each other in simple ways through Gary Chapman’s teaching on The Five Love Languages (Northfield Publishing, 2015) – this is practical and do-able with great results.
  3. Time spent together in scripture and prayer has cultivated an intimacy that spills over into every area of our marriage. (Perhaps we can share in more detail on these ways in another “Marriage Moment”).

More important than the “how,” is the motive, or the “why.” There are countless ways in which we can love and serve one another, but unless it is out of obedience to God’s Word, it probably won’t be a way of life. Like any other commitment, it is lived out little by little, day by day, until it becomes who we are.

 

Looking for a practical way to unpack “Ministry in Marriage”? Click here for “Being My Spouse’s Neighbor” a reflective exercise based on Galatians 5:13-14 or listen to “Marriage and Disciplemaking” Episode 15 of The Apprentice Approach Podcast with Terry and Leah Green.




Podcast 014: “The Impact of One” with Dianne Derby

“I don’t think there’s a greater way to show God’s love than to show what He’s done and changed in you – living that example to others.” – Dianne Derby

 


Today we have the privilege of talking with Dianne Derby. Dianne is an Emmy Award-winning journalist, the evening co-anchor for KKTV 11 News, holds two Masters degrees, is a wife, mom, and plays a significant part of our Colorado Springs community. But there’s one more thing to add to that list.

In this podcast, episode 014, we talk with Dianne about how one interview led to reading the Bible every Tuesday for five years with author, speaker, leader and Pearl Harbor survivor Jim Downing (our friend, who we affectionately call “Navigator #6”).

We covered topics like: how did that initial interview lead to the relationship it became, what did Jim Downing model to you in the context of The Apprentice Approach, what did it look like for Jim to walk alongside you during those years and in some significant life-moments, how is life different, and finally, what were some of your biggest take-away’s sitting with Jim?

Join us as we continue on our journey talking about spiritual generations with Dianne as she shares with us about her experience being discipled by Jim Downing.

P.S. If the idea of ripple-effect disciplemaking is a topic you want to learn more about or, if you want to hear from Jim Downing himself, head over to our Podcast and Blog page or go to www.theapprenticeapproach.org. Jim was our very first podcast guest – actually, the first three episodes – sharing everything from the definition of discipleship to its importance and being accountable for your influence to family and discipleship and even humor!

And, if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

Until next time, this is your host, Jack McQueeney, believing God for generations of men and women like you!

 

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Podcast 013: “The Measurable Difference of Disciplemaking” with Katlyn Kincaid, Abby Anderson, & Carmelle McCluggage

“Disciplemaking” isn’t coaching; it isn’t just being a teacher or leader. There are distinguishable, measurable differences: disciplemakers make disciples of Jesus who make more disciples of Jesus to the third and fourth generation. Multigenerational disciplemakers don’t just strive to “teach,” but out of our joy, we long for transference and we labor toward maturity. Intentionally helping others become not like us, but like Jesus.


Jack: Welcome to The Apprentice Approach Podcast Episode 013, where the ripples far exceed the splash… this is your host Jack McQueeney.

Many Christians struggle with making disciples; they feel busy, overwhelmed, and not qualified. We understand this struggle, which is why we’ve created a Bible-based framework so any believer can master the art of disciplemaking.

Today we’re going to focus on that last part: “master the art of disciplemaking.” You know, “disciplemaking” isn’t coaching; it isn’t just being a teacher or leader. There are distinguishable, measurable differences: disciplemakers make disciples of Jesus who make more disciples of Jesus to the third and fourth generation.

Multidimensional, multigenerational disciplemakers don’t just strive to “teach,” but out of our joy, we long for transference and we labor toward maturity, intentionally helping others become not like us, but like Jesus.

Dawson Trotman, founder of The Navigators, put it this way: “Activity is no substitute for production. Production is no substitute for reproduction.”

You know, we believe maturity in disciplemaking is actually measurable. Our friend Jim Downing would always use the example of botany to explain this – a fruit tree is mature when it produces fruit. Every believer is called to both God’s first command in Genesis 1:27-28: “…be fruitful and multiply…” and Jesus’ last command in Matthew 28:19-20 to “…go and make disciples…”. You can hear more on what it is to disciple toward maturity in our very first podcast “The Definition of Discipleship” with Jim Downing.

Okay! So now we’ve laid some groundwork on the definition and the measurability of disciplemaking, but HOW do we do it? What does it look like?

Let’s jump into today’s episode to see what generational disciplemaking actually looks like… in real life!

 

Jack: We have a special time planned for you today. We have three young women in the studio and we’re gonna talk about generational disciplemaking. We’ve got some exciting things and some guests that we’re going to have introduce themselves to you this morning. So, Katlyn, would you like to start for us?

Katlyn: Yes, hello, I am so happy to be here! I’m really excited about this. My name is, yes, Katlyn, and I was first introduced to the idea of discipleship as a child and I remember very clearly a counselor I had when I was a camper at Eagle Lake, who lived in Colorado Springs, in the off season I asked if she could meet with me and I was, I think, only in sixth grade. But, she would come pick me up from my house and then she would take me to a coffee shop or to someplace fun and we would just spend a little time reading the Bible together and then praying together. And, I just remember so clearly one time her talking about how God had written our names on the palm of His hand; and, I remember her writing my name in the palm of her hand. And, that just really inspired me because she cared so much about me and I just remember thinking, “I can do this too, I can do this with other people.” And one of those people eventually was Abby, and so I’m going to throw this over to her so she can introduce herself to you.

Abby: Well, hi guys! So excited to be here with you. My name is Abby and I was first introduced to discipleship actually at Eagle Lake Camps as well. When I was a camper there, I was discipled by my counselor and I just remember thinking, “Man! She’s so cool and she wants to spend time with me?” Um, so we just had such a sweet friendship and she really began to show me, not just what the Bible said, but also what God was doing in her life as well. And, that just felt so personal and I remember thinking, “Oh wow, God is using her even in her not being perfect and still figuring things out and that is – really was – a huge catalyst in me coming to know the Lord. And so, um one of the things I think that she taught me was that discipleship isn’t optional. Um, and that really has propelled the rest of my walk with Jesus. And so, I’ve actually had the privilege of discipling a girl named Carmelle, she is awesome, um and with us today. So, Carmelle do you want to introduce yourself?

Carmelle: Yes, hi! Um, my name is Carmelle, my story’s pretty similar to the other two ladies here. But, so I was first introduced to discipleship up at Eagle Lake Camp. Um yeah, I was counseled by a counselor that I had and she was really passionate and really devoted to my understanding of the Gospel and how that was playing into my life at home, which yeah, is something that I won’t forget. Um, and then coming back down off the mountain and kind of just going through regular life, I was approached by Abby who really just took time every week to, um, go through the Bible with me and pray with me.

Jack: That’s great! That’s great! Well, three generations of, uh, disciplemakers. I’m excited to be able to talk with you! You each represent a different generation, and I want to start with you Katlyn. Tell me why you think it’s important to be very intentional up front in your time together and how that reflected in your time with Abby.

Katlyn: Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, Abby – I knew Abby when she was actually a camper. I was a counselor when she was a camper at Eagle Lake. But that was not when we first, um, started our discipleship relationship. It was actually a couple years later, when my husband was running the Crew Program and Abby was his Crew Program Coach. So, she was one of the Leadership and so it was my role to meet with her throughout the summer. And that was, first of all, just the sweetest time; but, I remember it also being really crazy because I had an almost one-year old and I was also pregnant and so, um, and then I was meeting with Abby and several other Crew Counselors as well. And so, time was very limited – just in my own personal life and then also in meeting with these girls – and I was… I just also remember feeling tired a lot of times. And so, I didn’t have the capacity to be super strategic and come up with a plan of: this is where Abby needs to grow and this is how I’m going to help her grow and this is what we’re going to do together. But, I just remember, in my own time in being discipled by other women throughout the years, how important and valuable time in the Word and prayer was together; and so, um, and even just in my own walk with Jesus, I just knew that I needed time in the Word and prayer every day to really be abiding in Him well. And so, that was my hope and goal for my time with Abby – was just to really equip her with that and to come alongside her and serve her and encourage her in that and just help her to be filled spiritually; so that, as she was pouring into others, she was not relying on herself, but she was relying on the Spirit to, um, help her as she was meeting with others. And so, we were just very intentional in our time to just talk about life – just what was going on, how she was doing, how I was doing, um and then we just really made sure that we had some time in the Word and that we had time in prayer together. And that was what was always the most encouraging to us – was just that: sharing of life, time in the Word, time in prayer. And so, it wasn’t this big, fancy, strategic thing, I just didn’t have the emotional or just the regular time for that; but that was what was most important to me – was intentionally being in the time – time in the Word, time in prayer, time sharing how we were doing.

Jack: That’s really good. And, I think you had that modeled well from your mom. For those of you who don’t know, Katlyn is our oldest daughter; and all those number of years, Katlyn saw counselors come up and Shaunda get time with her in the midst of, uh, watching the kids and in the midst of “real life.” So, Abby how does that, uh, what does that look like for you with Carmelle and others and what you saw with Katlyn?

Abby: Yeah, that’s a great question, Jack. Um, so actually, how Carmelle and I actually got to know each other was really fun! Um, I had been a part of Eagle Lake’s Crew Program, which Katlyn talked about previously, for a couple years and Carmelle was one of our campers and I remember thinking she was really funny, and hilarious, um, and I was kinda slowly getting to know her. We’d spent a couple summers at camp together at that point. And – I think it was your second summer – I had just moved out to Colorado to actually start leading the Crew Program, and previously, I had led Bible Studies and discipled girls – really all through college, and um, even at the end of high school – but when I moved out to Colorado, I didn’t really know anyone. And so, I remember praying, “Lord you have given me such a clear ministry during the summer, but what does disciplemaking look like year-round, when camp isn’t running and I’m not like highly invested in all these people’s lives? What does discipleship look like?” And so, um, I remember there was one day I was sitting in the dining hall and Carmelle and a couple other campers – Tori and Kiera – we were all sitting around the table and I was just asking them, “What is it like going home from camp? You have this really intense experience of people discipling you, you have really strong community, what does it look like going home?” And they just talked about, “You know, I wish there were other people back at home who were this committed to walking with Jesus and wanted to read the Bible, like “in-depth” study the Bible together; and, we just haven’t found those people quite in our schools or in our communities,” and they just talked about this longing for this really Biblical community who was committed to studying the Bible, walking with Jesus, and uh, practicing discipleship. And I remembered thinking, like, “Well, I could, I could do that – like I could be a part of that.” And, it was one of these moments where I wouldn’t say, like, I felt this crazy calling, you know; but, here was a need that God had equipped me to meet. And so, I just asked them, “Hey, if we started a Bible study would you come to it?” Because, there’s nothing more terrifying, even, you know I think I was like 22 at the time, I’m like, “I don’t want to start a Bible Study and no one show up.” So, I had to confirm that people would come! But, I asked them, like, “If we started a Bible Study and continued to in-depth study the Bible like we’re doing at camp, would you come?” And all three of them were like, “Yes! Absolutely.” And so, there was a handful of girls who were in Colorado Springs who wanted, again, to just keep walking with Jesus and growing in their faith and were really ready for kind of the “next push” – the next step. Um, and so my roommate and I, Allison, decided: “Let’s start a Bible Study and see what the Lord does!” And we started a Bible Study with six high school girls at that point, and um during that season we had really, Allison and I, had really prayed, like you know six girls is a lot of girls and so, “What Lord – who do you want us to really give our time to one-on-one?” And so, we were all reading the Bible together every week; but um, we were just praying: Who do you want us to give our time to one-on-one? And, I just felt like the Lord kept bringing Carmelle to my mind. Carmelle is just so, like, caring and empathetic and she is a quiet leader who has a lot of wisdom and I just remember already seeing that when she was in high school and so, um, I just asked her. I think we had maybe been meeting – I don’t know, maybe three, four months – I just asked her if Tuesday mornings I could come pick her up before high school and read the Bible with her. And so, every Tuesday I would roll up to her house, pick her up, we would get breakfast and just read the Bible and pray together before I dropped her off at school. So, that’s kinda how our discipling relationship began.

Jack: That’s great, Abby! One of the things that, as I listened, you talked about being nervous. What did that look… flesh that out for us a little bit?

Abby: Yeah, I always joke: high schoolers are the most intimidating people I’ve ever met [laughter]! Um so, I was just nervous because: What if I didn’t have something to say? What if they didn’t want to be in a Bible Study with me? What if I, like I don’t know, didn’t have enough wisdom to give them? I know that sounds silly, but I think there’s just always insecurities whenever you are really stepping out in faith and yet, um again, there was a need and God had equipped me to meet it, so that was really my prompting to step out in faith.

Carmelle: Yeah, I felt the same way before starting to co-lead the Bible Study that we’re currently in. Yeah, I just remember feeling very afraid, thinking about all the, uh, “dis-qualifiers” and trying to grapple with the fact that I am not disqualified from sharing the Gospel; it’s something that is pertinent and yeah, not optional.

Jack: That’s great Carmelle! Well, one of the things that I wanted to get with Katlyn is: What are some of the things that you learned in your – as you were being discipled – and how did those things get passed on generationally to others? And, um, flesh that our for us, Katlyn.

Katlyn: Yeah, yeah that’s great. I met with a girl in college, her name was Katie, um, for all through my college career. And, Katie was so passionate about prayer. And, I remember doing several different studies on prayer, um, and just taking a lot of time when we were together to just be praying. And not always praying in the same way – really practicing different ways to pray. She especially loved praying through Psalms; and, I remember really loving that and learning that from her. And so, I think, even kind of unconsciously, I just really embraced that and remembered – or just embraced the fact that – when I’m meeting with someone, we need to be praying together. And so, I know that in my discipleship relationships, I’ve always been very intentional to make prayer a big part of what we’re doing in our time together. I think for me, partly because it’s so easy to say, “Okay, what I can be praying for you this week?” And then, – I know I’m not great at following up in that in my prayer life – making sure I’m intentionally praying for that person outside of our time together. It’s something I want to be intentional in and am working towards, but it’s just a personal feeling of mine. But, when I can make sure that when we’re together, we’re praying for those needs together, it’s just so sweet and there’s just something, man, I could go on about this for forever! But, it really breaks down walls; it really builds vulnerability; and, it really builds the relationship to be praying together; and, it just invites the Spirit in these beautiful, amazing ways! And so, that’s something that I was passionate about. And actually, but I didn’t necessarily realize I was making it such a priority until I was talking with Abby about this podcast… and I’m gonna let her tell her side of the story.

Abby: Yeah, you know it’s funny, I think we always lean into the places that we feel more comfortable and I would say reading the Word, uh, and studying the Word is definitely more my comfort zone and prayer is something that really stretches me. Uh, you know, right now Carmelle and I actually lead a high school Bible Study together, so now we’re co-leaders and our high school girls came to us maybe three or four months ago and they were just like, “I – we’re not getting like – our quiet time’s feeling kind of dull, we don’t know what to do.” And, I was just remembering how much time Katlyn had spent praying with me and teaching me how to pray. And, I feel like our girls really know how to study the Bible and it’s so sweet that that’s such a strong skill of theirs, but I feel like prayer is a weakness, especially because that’s my weakness, and sometimes you pass down your own weaknesses to the women you disciple. And so, I just invited them over one Saturday, uh, and it felt out of my comfort zone too, but we just practiced listening prayer for two hours. And so, for like one month every Saturday they would come over, um, we would sit on my couch and I would just open us up in prayer and say, “Lord we’re listening, we’re here, is there anything you want to say to these girls?” Um, and to be honest, I was nervous because I was like, “What if the Holy Spirit doesn’t say anything to them?” Um, and you know, it was that trusting God with the people you disciple. Um, and as we sat there, it was like pretty quiet and awkward for the first 30-40 minutes, but I kid you not, by the second time we had done listening prayer all three girls who were over were in tears because the Holy Spirit spoke to them and how sweet that it wasn’t me teaching them about Jesus but I was getting to witness the Holy Spirit, um, meet them in their own place and teach them more about who He was.

Jack: Yeah, you know Paul says, “And the things you’ve heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust of reliable men [or women] who would be qualified to teach others also.” Well, Carmelle how did that impact you as you began to see Abby do that with you?

Carmelle: Yeah, um, that’s one of the things I really admire about Abby – is like she digs into those uncomfortable places – and like, really addresses, um, the needs of our group just super well. So, she is good at picking out, like um, I don’t know, Bible Study isn’t a place where we’re supposed to feel 100% comfortable, um, she’s gonna, like, ask those questions that are really going to challenge us, um, and that’s what’s gonna ultimately lead to our growth and spiritual maturity.

Katlyn: Yeah and I think, I hope you guys are hearing this, um, something I’m hearing, as we’re all talking, is just how God uniquely created us to be the person He wanted us to be and so we’re not all discipling the same. And so, the way Katie discipled me was not the way that I discipled Abby; because, I’m not Katie. But, she shared with me what she was passionate about and she shared with me how to be passionate about the Word and prayer. And, I was able to pass on, not specifically how to do that, but my passion for the Word and my passion for prayer to Abby. And, Abby was not me; but, she was able to take that passion for the Word and passion for prayer – or learning that passion for prayer – and make sure that she was equipping Carmelle and the others. And, then Carmelle is also doing this now with other girls in a way that Abby did not do it. Carmelle’s really making it her own, um, but we can pass down that passion for the Word and passion for prayer.

Abby: Well I think, you know, there’s nothing cooler than seeing God raise up someone you’ve discipled to reach a person or a place that you could never go. And, I remember as we started our Bible Study, when Carmelle and I began leading, um, Carmelle just has a strong cool factor – like, it’s just a well-known fact.

Katlyn: It’s so true.

Abby: And, I remember, like, there were – especially one of the girls – just like, looked up to Carmelle, totally connected with Carmelle and I felt like I didn’t know where to go with this relationship with this girl; and yet, God had given Carmelle this, um – this girl was just drawn to Carmelle – and whatever Carmelle said, she totally respected. And so, I just think God is so sweet to raise up disciplers that people you’ve discipled to disciple other people that you couldn’t connect with, you couldn’t reach to. And, I think that’s where we need to make sure that we are winning people to Christ, not winning people to ourselves. And I think, that’s something that can easily happen in discipleship is: am I making these girls rely on me for their spiritual growth or am I coming alongside them, teaching them to rely on Christ so that He can equip them to go disciple others.

Jack: Abby, as you’ve allowed Carmelle to lead out – you’ve taught her how to – you’ve modeled and taught her how to lead in Bible Study. Bring us up to speed on how, of course she’s doing a great job, but how has it been to let her do that? To let her fly by herself?

Abby: Yeah well, I think my proudest, like, discipling moment ever was, uh, so the six girls we started with in our Bible Study were all graduating high school and half of them were leaving Colorado and the other three were staying in Colorado Springs. And so, me and the girl I was leading with previously, Alison, invited them over to my apartment. We were just hanging out with them chatting and we just asked them all, “Hey, what do you think next year should look like? We’re available, we want to, uh invest in you and continue to help you grow in your relationship with Christ; uh, but what do you think that should look like?” And I remember Carmelle like was so timid and laughing and didn’t want to say what she was gonna say, but she just looked at us and was like, “I think we’re ready to disciple other people but I’m just so nervous.” And that was really what launched this next generation. And so, it’s been so cool because Carmelle and Kiera and myself are now all co-leading this Bible Study; and, it’s been so sweet to be able to step back and know that if I’m out of town for a week, like, they can lead and they can help these girls come to know Christ more. And so, a couple weeks ago, I was, um, out on a trip and it was over Valentine’s Day and so they were like, “Hey, can we actually do something, like, we’re thinking about doing something different for our Bible Study,” and they ended up going through 1st John. And, we have one girl in our Bible Study who is known for asking the hardest questions known to man – and I love her for it – but, if you ever want to be stumped, do Bible Study with her. And so, Carmelle and Kiera led this Bible Study; and of course, this girl is asking a million hard questions. And what they did? Carmelle and Kiera left that Bible Study, dug into the Word, answered these questions, and then connected with her and followed up on all the questions that she had asked. And I think, um you know, it’s been so cool to, again, trust God that He’s gonna use these girls in ways that He, um, maybe I wouldn’t even be equipped to do as much. And so, I think it’s been good to see: it’s gonna look different; and yet, the Holy Spirit is moving through Carmelle and Kiera to disciple the next generation and I’ve gotta trust Him in that.

Jack: Well Carmelle, how did you feel about that, in the midst of it? In terms of being nervous and, uh, looking forward to leading in that? Talk to us about that.

Carmelle: Yeah, well I should first say that we have, like, the most gracious group of girls ever, so really, yeah, I struck gold there. Um, but yeah, as I’ve been going through it, um, I think I’ve really just been digging into practical ways of teaching and instructing so that they can have something to take away from every time we meet. Kind of trying to demystify, like, what it is to seek God in our daily lives; because, I feel like a lot of times that can be fuzzy. Um yeah, the nervousness is still there a lot of the times; but yeah, it’s okay to have those moments of silence and moments of awkwardness.

Jack: Uh-huh, yeah. I think that’s really true. Well Carmelle, why don’t you talk to us about your ministry now and what God has laid on your heart as it relates to what you’ve seen Abby do with you?

Carmelle: Yeah so, um like, we’ve mentioned Abby, Kiera, and I now co-lead a Bible Study of high school girls who have done the Crew program at Eagle Lake Camps. Um, that’s been really beautiful. Um, I was a counselor this past summer at Eagle Lake as well and following up with my campers while I’ve been home has played a huge part into my life, um, not at camp. Yeah.

Jack: That’s good. That’s good.

Carmelle: Um, I’d say some huge things that I have learned from being discipled by Abby has been encouragement and then also being, like, very challenged.

Abby: [laughs] That’s because I would challenge Carmelle a lot; so, I’m glad you continued that on!

Carmelle: No but it’s great because, like, not taking those, like, watered down answers to questions really, like being, pursuing me in like – I don’t know…

Abby: Well, I think Carmelle, like, she was always – she has such a wisdom about her – but, I think often times, especially when discipling high schoolers, you can get very surface-level answers. But, it takes that really digging to understand what do they truly think, what do they truly believe? And, that’s been one of the cool things – like, leading with Carmelle – is that, um yeah, again there’s some relationships where I don’t always have the relational trust to really push into things; and yet, some of those girls trust Carmelle even more, and she’s so good when people maybe give a surface level answer that we can kinda tell that might not be what they think or what they believe, she’s been so good to follow-up and say like, “Are you sure that’s what you’re feeling? Are you sure that’s what you’re thinking?” Um because, if we don’t talk about reality like it is, if we don’t know what people are believing about God, how can you point them to Christ? And, she’s so good at digging into that.

Jack: How did you see Katlyn do that with you, Abby?

Abby: Oh, Katlyn. Um, she doesn’t take surface level answers – ever. Um she, what I love about Katlyn is that she’s soft and yet she’s strong in the same moment. And so, um, there were often times where, again when she was discipling me, I was, um, in leadership, it was like the first leadership role I had ever had! I felt so unqualified and I just wanted to be really good at what I was doing. And so, I think often times I can struggle with, like, how people perceive me. And so, at first it would be really easy to say like, “Yeah, I’m doing great. Everything’s great, everything’s awesome.” And yet, she has such discernment that she would always push into that and ask about very specific things. Um, I think that is always a really good tool – is when you can tell that there’s more – um, asking about specific situations often unearths what may actually be going on under the surface, and she was so good at that.

Katlyn: Thank you. I’m glad you appreciated that, now looking back, maybe not so much at the time? Um, yeah and I definitely had Suz, there was an amazing, amazing human named Suz and she did that for me. And, I think it’s just cool to see how you have that passed on. And, I think what’s so cool about discipleship, I even think about, um you know, going back to Katie and Suz and just when they were discipling me, it wasn’t even always about me, it was also about: we’re doing this for you and the person you’re discipling. So, it’s not just you, but who else? Like, who’s your person that you’re going to be discipling? And, I think that’s what I love so much in seeing Abby, um, and meeting with her: it’s always been – even in our conversations – it’s not just about Abby; she talks about the girls she’s discipling and we talk about – we talked when we were meeting – about the girls she’s discipling during the summer and how what we’re doing can equip them and how she can better equip them. And that was a lot of our conversation, which is just so sweet that it’s not just about me, it’s not just about Abby; but, it’s about someone else too. Not that we’re talking badly, but just how can we equip them? How can we support them? How can we build them to be building the next person? And so, it’s so sweet to see Abby’s relationship with Carmelle. And even though I don’t disciple Carmelle, I don’t know her super well, I care about her and care about her spiritual growth. And, it’s so cool to see Abby not care just for Carmelle but also care so deeply about the girls Carmelle is meeting with and discipling and who they will eventually be discipling. And I think that’s what we love, what I love so much about spiritual generations is it’s not about me and there’s so many places where I hear all the time, “It’s just about me; just take care of yourself; do what’s best for you.” And generational discipleship is: “No, it’s not about you; it’s about the person who’s beyond you – two or three or four steps – how are you going to carry that on?”

Jack: Yeah, that is so appropriate because the ripple does far exceed the initial splash. Well, thank you ladies for your time this morning; we appreciate being together with you and we look forward to another podcast down the road.

Everyone: Thanks, thank you, thanks Jack

 

Jack: What a joy it was to sit down with these three dynamic ladies! We’ve seen and heard today what it looks like to be a disciple who makes disciplemakers. Even though each of these relationships is unique to the people involved, you can still see the thread… the “jingle of an unbroken chain” if you will… of what it looks like when men and women give themselves to the things of God, pushing past the initial awkwardness, showing up, and sharing focused time: connecting, reading God’s Word, and praying together.

We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode, learning community and feel encouraged and better equipped! If the idea of discipling toward maturity is a topic you’re enjoying learning more about, we’ve got a number of other great episodes that expand on a lot of what we talked about today! One of those is our very first episode with the late Jim Downing,  “The Definition of Discipleship”.

For more on The Apprentice Approach, including the full transcript of this podcast, resources, our blog, and to sign up for emails, visit our website TheApprenticeApproach.org, and if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

And let me encourage you to share this with a friend!

Until next time, this is your host, Jack McQueeney, believing God for generations of men and women like you!

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Blog 28 Teaching vs. Transference: A Maturity That’s Measurable

“As I think back to the early days of The Navigators, what Dawson was about was equipping people to reproduce. Now that is not the universally accepted definition of what a disciple is. So, Dawson Trotman from the very earliest believed in generations, believed in reproduction, and a keyword is maturity. So, he chose discipleship as we call it today – I call it maturity – as the best means toward multiplication and spiritual reproduction. Maturity is measurable. In zoology, when an animal is mature, it reproduces. In botany, when a fruit tree is mature when it reproduces. So the end result of all parental care is that they will reproduce.” –Jim Downing


There’s a subtle difference between teaching and equipping. To teach means to bestow on someone the knowledge or skills we ourselves have. It’s a “passing along,” and good teaching usually involves some sort of practical application. Teaching is almost always valuable, and often, teaching is enough.

However, there’s also a “more than” teaching level that is essential for being a disciple of Jesus who makes more disciples of Jesus – we like to call it “equipping.” Where teaching – as we define it – stops at simply passing along knowledge or skills, equipping has a slightly different end goal in mind: enough confidence in the new knowledge or skill that the learner is able to turn around and not only teach but equip someone else to equip yet another person in said knowledge or skill.

A bit confusing? Essentially, what it comes down to is that, to us, discipleship is NOT simply teaching others what we know; discipleship is about equipping them to pass it on to others. Or, even more simply put: discipleship IS about making spiritual generations.  

We get it: it’s so easy to say, “We’re about equipping;” but it’s so hard to shift from a teaching paradigm to an equipping one. How do we make this shift? We have a few suggestions in mind:

  1. Remember that before an organism can reproduce, first it must mature. Does that mean that the person you are meeting with (or you yourself) has to be amazingly mature spiritually before they can start discipling others? No! But, it does mean that you and they must’ve at least started to walk on the path of following Jesus through time in the Word, prayer, and fellowship with other believers.
  2. Remember, YOU set the example. Practice one-to-one, intentional, life-to-life discipleship. As Jim Downing put it in the podcast he recorded with us: “I’ve written a study on this, and I talk about one-on-ones being the best kind of “training secret” of growth. John Dewey, a great American educator – I don’t agree with everything he said – but he said once that example was not the best way of teaching. It is the only way. So, in one-on-ones, there are a lot of examples that we set the pace in. I’ve found that in a group, people will never fully share what’s in their hearts, because they don’t want other people to hear it. But in a trusted relationship that’s been established, why you’ll find out and can help the person with what’s closest on his heart.”
  3. Remember, if you haven’t equipped them to fish, they won’t know what to do with a fishing pole. Think about where the person you are discipling is at not just spiritually but relationally, culturally, etc., and then meet them there! To move from teaching to equipping them to do things like study the Bible, pray, and share their testimony, try to:
    1. Use analogies and metaphors – concepts become more meaningful and easier to understand if you put it in terms that make sense to them, explaining why it’s important in images they can easily grasp. Even better? Once they understand, ask them to create their own analogies or metaphors for how they would explain this concept to others!
    2. Help them plan ahead for how they’ll transfer what they’re learning. With you, they’re probably learning in a safe, controlled environment. Once they begin passing this along to others, they’ll inevitably encounter situations that aren’t even close to what they learned in. Help them understand how what you’re teaching can flex into any environment. (And if it can’t, reconsider training this topic in the first place.)
    3. Help them grow in confidence in their ability to pass what they’re learning along to others by helping them grow in their metacognitive strategies. Basically, teach them to ask themselves questions like:
      • As I learn this tool/strategy, etc., who is God laying on my heart to share it with? Why? Am I excited or do I have hesitations? Why? Who can I process those with in order to move forward in this well?
      • In doing/reproducing this, where am I comfortable? Uncomfortable? Still confused or unable to fully explain?
      • What do I need to learn/practice to more confidently pass this along?
      • What is my end goal in choosing to pass this along? What driving factor can I fall back on when I’m feeling tired or discouraged?
      • Where is my “pour-out” gas gauge at? If empty, how can I (differently) practice abiding in Christ through prayer, the Word, and fellowship so I maintain a consistent level?
  4. And finally, model model model this yourself, especially in talking through how you are practicing what you are equipping him/her in and through asking good questions! We have a great podcast with Abby Anderson that digs into the importance of modeling well if you’d like to know more. We’ve also got a great resource on asking follow-up questions that keeps the conversation going deeper.

Want something a bit more tangible to help you with this? Check out our “Maturity is Measurable” tool to help guide you and the person you are discipling!

Remember, as Jim Downing said and modeled, when we disciple someone, we’re to care about their spiritual growth as parents so that they mature spiritually, and the end goal of maturation is reproduction. The BEST thing you can do is to not only teach but equip the person you are discipling!




Podcast 012: The “How’s” of Reaching and Discipling Millennials and Gen Z with Abby Anderson

Learn how to develop relationships (through consistent commitment) that can bear the weight of truth and the hard parts of life; how to invite these generations into deeper development and growth; and, how to win people to Christ, not ourselves… and so much more in this second episode focused on Millennials and Gen Z.


Jack: Welcome to the Apprentice Approach Podcast Episode 012, where the ripples far exceed the splash… this is your host Jack McQueeney.

Many Christians struggle with making disciples; they feel busy, overwhelmed, and not qualified. We understand this struggle, which is why we’ve created a Bible-based framework so any believer can master the art of disciplemaking.

You know, we’ve had a lot of questions about reaching Millennials – and as the largest living adult generation, they’re the greatest driving force in many areas of our society… including disciplemaking. So, we’re excited to focus this month on Millennials, Gen Z, and what you need to know to be a disciplemaker who makes disciplemakers to the third and fourth generations!

Today, we have the privilege of talking with Abby Anderson – who’s living The Apprentice Approach lifestyle with these generations! Abby has been a part of the Eagle Lake family here with The Navigators for many years and is currently the Sustained Giving Supervisor. Abby was also the Crew Director at our Overnight property at Eagle Lake Camps for multiple summers, where she got to pour into the lives of Crew counselors as well as our Crew campers. She has a real heart for those that are in high school and college, and desires to walk alongside them as they learn how to pursue the Lord wholeheartedly.

We’re in the second episode of this two-part series about reaching and discipling Millennials and the generation after that, Gen Z. If you haven’t listened to our last episode (Episode 11), I’d highly encourage you to do that as Abby and I talked about foundational truths about both Gen Z and Millennials you need to know – showing us how we can model merging the sacred and secular, how we, as disciplemakers, get to share how the Gospel changes our relationship with God, and how the Holy Spirit transforms our identity. But today, we’re moving forward from the foundational truths to the “how’s.” Abby shares some keys to how we can reach Millennials and Gen Z.

In this episode, we talk about how to develop relationships (through consistent commitment) that can bear the weight of truth and the hard parts of life; how to invite these generations into deeper development and growth; and, how to win people to Christ, not ourselves… and so much more!

It is a pleasure to have Abby with us today. Let’s dive in!

Jack: Well, now that we know a little bit about Millennials and Gen Z, Abby, what are some keys to jumping in and practically discipling these young men and women?

Abby: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think, you know, just to give you a little bit of background, really the two first times I was discipled: the first time I didn’t even know someone was discipling me; it was kinda secret discipleship. One of my teachers, she is a former Navigator, she asked me to be her teacher’s aid and just started asking me what I believed about Jesus, and I wasn’t really walking with the Lord at that time and so through that space, she really began to cultivate some questions that I had about Jesus. And so, from her, I just learned: you can do it anywhere. We can literally disciple anyone, anywhere, so we’ve gotta be able to broaden our scope of what that looks like. And then I think the second thing is I had the privilege of being discipled by one of my camp counselors right when I began walking with Jesus, and she just basically taught me it wasn’t optional; I didn’t know, because I was a new believer, I had no idea that there are some believers – people walking with Jesus – who do not disciple. I just thought that was what you had to do immediately, so I had just come to know the Lord; I went home (I’m sixteen at the time) and I just found an eighth-grade girl to read the Bible with. And I had no idea what I was doing, but I knew that when I was meeting with my counselor Daria, she would read the Bible with me, so I guess that’s what Christians do. And so, I love that the Holy Spirit just used her in my life to propel me into this world of discipleship that has completely changed my entire life. And so, the first thing I just want to say is: guys, it’s not optional. We don’t just get to decide if we feel like discipling or not, this is part of walking with Jesus. And second, we may not feel equipped enough, we may not feel like we know what we’re doing, but I love that in my ignorance the Holy Spirit showed up and gave me words to say as I discipled this thirteen-year old girl. So, it’s not optional.

Jack: How about inviting someone into that kind of relationship, what does that look like for you?

Abby: Yeah, I think it’s always a little nerve-racking; no matter how old you are, you want to be liked. It doesn’t change. And I really thought it would; but now I am 26, and I still want people to like me. But, I think we have to remember something innate in humans is that there’s something so nice about being wanted. And so, whenever I go to someone and say, “I want to spend time with you;” “I want to get to know you;” “I want to invest in you,” I think there’s no one who’s offended by that. So, we get to give people the gift of wanting to be wanted. Um, I think the second thing, I have the privilege of discipling high schoolers and I kid you not, they’re the most intimidating people I have ever met, even being 10 years older than some of them, they still intimidate me! But, I have to remind myself that if you’re older, they already think you’re cool, so there are many times when I’ll be picking up one of my high school girls and thinking like, “Oh, does she think I’m so lame?” And I’ll have to say to myself in my head, “They think you’re cool because you’re older, so play off of that.” Um, I think we have to be okay to just be confident walking up to someone and asking if we can meet with them and begin reading the Bible with them and teaching them to walk with Jesus. I think also, the last thing that has just been so crucial in my discipleship relationships is having high expectations. Remember that it is important to set clear expectations for them up front so that they understand what you are expecting in this relationship and what you want it to look like. Something that is so sweet about this generation is if you set high expectations, they rise to them. And it was funny, even preparing for this podcast, I asked some of my high school girls like, “Hey what’s important for people to know about discipling your generation?” And the first thing they said was: “Set high expectations, we’ll rise to them.”

Jack: Hmm, that’s interesting. You know, Jesus called the 12 to be with him, he didn’t, uh, ask for volunteers, he was very specific. You know, Abby, as you think about the generations going forward, why is it important to have these high expectations?

Abby: I think a lot of time our generation and Gen Z feels written off. I can’t tell you how many times there has been jokes about, “Oh Millennials!” and I think we want to show that we have something to bring to the table. And so, when you look at someone and you can say like, “I see this in you;” “I see that you can do this;” “Will you rise to this expectation?” They feel honored and valued in that. And so, one of the things, um, in leading a high school Bible Study, I tell them exactly what I’m expecting of them. If they don’t have time to be involved and be committed and show up every week, then this probably isn’t the right place… and that’s okay. And we give them the freedom to say “no.” But, when they commit to being in our Bible Study, to grow relationships, you can only go as deep as the shallowest person [Jack: Yeah] and so we’re really clear about what the time commitment looks like, what we are going to be doing, and then we give them the freedom to say “yes” or “no” to that.

Jack: So, this is really important for any generation.

Abby: Yep.

Jack: Well, what does that look like for these Gen Z’s, why is it especially important for them?

Abby: I think what I love about Gen Z, uh, give them the real deal. They want to know truth, they want to know what you expect. They don’t want to play around, and so if you can say, “This is what I see in you;” “this is what I think of you;” “this is what I expect of you,” they feel really honored in that. Um, even when you say hard things; I think so often we’re afraid of offending them – because this is a generation that at times can be a little touchy and can get offended pretty easily – but, what I’ve found is when you honor their dignity enough to tell them the truth, they feel respected and they trust you.

Jack: So, there’s a sense of authenticity with you as you try to communicate that truth that really does come across [Abby: Yes!]. You know that’s really good ‘cause that reminds me of a conversation that we’ve had with Mark Heffentrager on “Leading the Next (and Now) Generation of Disciplers” and he talked about the importance of “tribe” in Millennials. Can you tell us a little more about the impact when a discipler, when someone really shows up, what does that really convey to these young men and women?

Abby: Yeah, I think they want to be valued and important, and so when you say, “I’m going to be present in your life;” “I’m not going to go away;” “I’m going to be consistent no matter what,” what it shows them is that you’re trustworthy. What I’ve found in almost all of my discipling relationships is that it takes about a year for me to really feel like, “Wow, they trust me.” Um, and that’s a long time, if we’re being honest. You know, it’s been interesting now walking through a couple generations of high school girls that I’ve discipled, every time I start over I’m like, “Am I doing something wrong?” “Why is this weird sometimes?” “Am I bad at this now?” “Like, did I lose how to disciple people?” And yet it takes about a year for them to really, really trust you and so what that means is a year of showing up to their tennis matches, a year of showing up to their basketball games, a year of picking them up after school, a year of showing that I’m not going anywhere no matter what you do, what you say, who you are, because I love you and I’m committed to you. And, when you can show that you’re going to be consistent regardless of circumstances, all the sudden the walls begin to fall and you can really begin to see who they are, and they trust you with their heart.

Jack: So, developing the weight, developing that relationship that will bear the weight of the truth that will eventually come when you guys talk about the hard things, that’s good!

Abby: Yeah, definitely.

Jack: You know, you mention it being hard and awkward, and I think that’s a topic that we all can really learn from, some keys to that. What does that look like for you?

Abby: Well, I think if I would probably get on a rooftop and shout anything about discipleship, one of the first things I would say is, “Don’t give up when it’s weird! Don’t give up when it’s weird.” Because if you give up when it’s weird, you’ll never get to the goodness of it. And so, I mean, I have been discipling people for ten years and, I will tell you, year after year, it’s weird sometimes. What that has looked like, a lot of times when I’m building relationships with people there’s a couple things that I have seen trends in. So, the first is, when you start a new discipling relationship, you’re gonna start with the shallow answers; so, it’s hard to feel like you’re actually getting down to what they actually believe about Jesus, because a lot of times they maybe know the “right” things to say, but that’s not what they actually believe all the time. And so, it feels like you’re bumping up against this knowledge – this “head” knowledge – and not able to dig deeper into the heart knowledge. And so, when that happens, don’t give up! Keep showing up, because they will drop the walls and begin to ask you questions; they will drop the walls and let you push back on things.Um, I think the second thing that’s kind of hard about it is every person is different, and I’ve seen this with my girls. There are some girls if I push pretty hard, saying like, “Are you sure, like, that was the right thing to do? Are you sure that you’re really trusting God with that?” They are so perfectionistic, they would be mortified and absolutely filled with shame. And so, there are girls that that would be a horrible approach to and yet, there are some other girls where I can look them in the eye and say like, “You’re sinning in this way; so, what are you gonna do about it?” And, that’s exactly the challenge they need, and they feel so cared for, loved, and known by – my bluntness is calling things what they are. And so, part of the first year is just getting to know who you’re ministering to, because a right step in one relationship could be a total wrong step in another, and so you need to know what lies Satan has been whispering over them for years – what things they struggle with – what they’re so fearful of. Because, as you can learn those things, you can be wise in not reinforcing things that are not true, but instead, speaking truth over them.

Jack: So Abby, as you attempt to not use a “one size fits all” perspective in the midst of this, what are some of the things that you do to prepare and to listen in to the Holy Spirit to determine what it is you know one of your girls might be struggling with?

Abby: Yeah, I think um, first off, I love that you brought up the Holy Spirit, because I think that is the only way we can really have insight and wisdom to their hearts. Uh, one of the things I try to do, especially on my drive over to pick up any of my girls, I just pray like, “Lord, would you show me, you know, what’s going on in their heart? What’s holding them back from following you? Would you give me the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, wisdom outside of anything that man can know?” But, I think another really important thing is, I actually try to pray that in front of them too, because I think it’s important to not win people to me, but win people to Christ. And so, building dependence on Christ, not myself, and I think it would be really easy, as the Holy Spirit gives me insight and wisdom into what they’re struggling with, for them to think, “Wow! Abby’s so insightful! I need to call her for everything.” But really, it’s the Holy Spirit who’s doing that; and so, I’m intentional, like when I’m meeting with them, to pray like, “Holy Spirit would you just give me wisdom to know how I can love Carmelle, serve Carmelle, and teach Carmelle more about you.” So that they know it’s the Holy Spirit inside of me who’s empowering me to do that, so that’s one of, you know, it’s a small distinction and yet it is absolutely will change the way you disciple.Um, I think the second thing, um, is that I, uh gosh, high schoolers are so funny because they want you know things and they don’t in the same moment. And so, if you ever sense like a hesitation before they answer a question, just call it. You know, there’ll be times where I’ll ask, “How was your week?” And they’ll pause and then they’ll be like, “Yeah, I mean it was really good.” Well, that tells you right there that there’s more to that answer and so I think we have to not be afraid of what’s going to come out. I know there probably even more recently in some of my relationships, sometimes I get afraid, like what are you going to say? What if I don’t have the right answer? And so, I don’t press in, and yet, again, we have the Holy Spirit in us, so we need to be able to trust and press into those hesitations and say, “Hey, you sounded like you hesitated; is there more to that? Would you tell me?” Like, “Do you know I’m trustworthy and I won’t say anything that, like, I won’t repeat this to other people, if that’s something you don’t want to happen?” So, um, I think again, just affirming you’re a safe place. And then lastly, um, we’ve gotta be a really good listener. And in discipleship, I think often we can we can go into a mode where we’re trying to teach other people and we’re not necessarily listening well. And so, one of the – there’s like probably three things I do to try to listen well.

The first is, someone told me once that, “If you want to understand someone’s theology, listen to them pray,” and, it is one of the most true statements I’ve ever heard. So, I will, a lot of times, I think it would be really easy in a Bible Study to let me lead, to let me pray, to let me facilitate like our spiritual conversations; but, if I want to know where my girls are at, I probably have to stop talking a lot more. And so, I’ll ask, I just call them out, at this point like they are comfortable enough that they call me out right back, but I’ll just call them out and say, “Hey, Sydney, you’re gonna pray for us.” And she does, and it’s awesome. But, as she prays and open us up in our time, I listen to: what is she highlighting about Jesus? What is she thanking Him for? Is she thanking Him for His grace? Is she thanking Him for His holiness? Is she only praying for – is she only asking for things? Um, that’s a really good, uh, if you hear girls only asking God for things, um, that’s a great launching point into saying like, “Hey, I noticed that when you pray, uh, you’re really asking God for, to bless your day and bless everything that you do; are you wanting to be about His Kingdom, or are you wanting to be about your kingdom?” Um, so listen to what they pray for and follow-up with them and ask them about it, and don’t be afraid– if they trust you, they’re not gonna be offended, they’re gonna feel known. So, the first is listen to them pray. Second, listen to the patterns, um, that they talk about. One thing we do before Bible Study is I always ask, “Happy/Crappy.” So, I say, “What’s a happy moment of your day? What was a crappy moment of your day?” Um, you’ll see trends really, really quickly. So, what is, uh, what are the things of disappointment that are ruling their life? Um, is it bad grades? Um, I know there is – I’ve discipled a couple girls who are just so overwhelmed by perfectionism, and so they’ll say over and over like, “I just have so much homework, I can’t do anything right; blah blah blah blah blah.” Well then, we get to talk about, like, what it means to rest in Christ’s grace. Um, but I have other girls who really struggle with bitterness, and so they’ll talk about like, “Well, and then this person did this to me and it was just the worst.” Are they painting themselves in the light of the victim, because then we get to talk about our own sin and what it looks like to walk through forgiveness and extend grace. So, listen to what are the trends that they say, um, this sounds super creepy and weird, but don’t be afraid to take notes on the people you’re discipling. Because you’re not gonna remember everything they say, so when I make observations, especially when I first began discipling people, in the back of my notebook I would write their names and write down things that are important to them. You know, so I would say like, “Shay said this that this was really important to her, I need to remember this. Um, this verse really stuck out to her for some reason. I need to look into this verse more and ask her why that was important.” So, I’ll take notes on what they say and what is important to them [Jack: Sure!] so I can see trends in what God’s doing. And then the last thing is: ask questions. I think we feel so much pressure in discipleship because we think we need to have the right answer, and yet we are, like, we have the opportunity to bring them to Jesus and show them who Jesus is. And so, I just ask a lot of questions in my discipling relationships, and I rarely give answers. So, if someone has a really, um, one of the, you know someone has a “crappy” that kinda sticks out to me, or a “happy” that sticks out to me, I’ll say, “Why was that so important to you? What about that moment was so defining for your week? Would you tell us more about that?” Or, if someone makes, um, you know, tells me a situation that’s hard, but then they try to brush it off – um which high schoolers do all the time – they’ll say like, “Well, it wasn’t that big of a deal though.” I’ll stop and say, “What did that feel like? Could you describe that to me? How did that change what you believe about Jesus?” And I think, as you ask those questions, they’ll answer. They’ll surprise you with their authenticity and their honesty. But, you have to be able to go there with them and not react or be afraid by what they say. Because, if they can tell you their doubts, their fears, and you can respond in love and acceptance, then you all of a sudden have the space and the trust to be able to speak into those places.

Jack: Boy, that gets to their core identity too. That’s good. Well, Abby, is it, uh, is it really just about meeting with them? Or what is it, uh – what is it your long-term vision that you’re thinking about?

Abby: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think my vision and my prayer has been that the next generation would know and love Jesus for the rest of their life. And I think that last part is so key: for the rest of their life. Because we see a lot of people, um, a lot of my generation (and I anticipate Gen Z) leaving the Church after Graduation. Um, when it’s not their parents’ faith anymore, it sure doesn’t often transition into being their personal faith. And so, I think one of the things that has been really helpful is I, um, there’s like a really easy diagram, um, that I’ve used in the past that you can easily pinpoint kind of where people are in their spiritual growth. And so, um, really there’s four quadrants: one where they have never heard of Jesus and don’t know the Gospel, the second quadrant would be they’ve heard the Gospel but they’re not sure if they believe it, the third would be they believe the Gospel but they don’t know how to practice it and continue to grow with Christ, and the fourth quadrant would be they know the Gospel, they know how to grow with Christ, and they can reproduce other disciples. And so, what I’ve been intentional to do is just because all my girls have heard the Gospel, just because all of them are in Bible Study, does not mean that they are all in the same quadrant. And so, I need to be intentional to truly understand where they are in their walk with Jesus, because that’s going to change how I approach, um, my discipling relationships with them. And so, I have girls who very much understand the Gospel, and yet they’re still deciding like, “Is Jesus worth it? I know it’s gonna cost.” I have girls who understand the Gospel and, you know they’re now learning, “Okay, what does it look like to walk with Jesus every day? How do I continue to grow in my, um, my spiritual disciplines and, um, how to read the Word by myself.” And then I also have girls who like, they understand the Gospel, they get what it looks like to walk with Jesus – even if I were to step back from discipling them – they, I mean they’re running and they are ready to make disciples and so I think my goal is always, I always want to have a vision for all of my girls being in the fourth quadrant. I always want them to steadfastly be walking with Jesus for the rest of their lives and making disciples in that process. But, I think we also need to acknowledge that not every girl I’m discipling is there; and so, my prayer is always – they’re moving into the next quadrant, they’re moving into a deeper, more steadfast, faithful relationship with Jesus that will extend to the rest of their life and then they will be able to continue to make disciples. And so, um, I think it’s been cool to, uh, I there’s probably like two or three different girls, um, in the past that I’ve really spent a lot of intentional time with, and some of them, um, is because they are walking through that question of: “Is Jesus worth it? Do I actually want to follow Him?” Um, but then some of them, like, they’re ready to share their faith. They’re ready to go out and make disciples. And so, in our conversations, we’re talking about like, “Okay, who’s a friend we can pray for that doesn’t know Jesus that we can share the Gospel with?” And so, I think we need to have a vision for: how do we help these girls move to that fourth quadrant, where they can begin making disciples in their schools – sometimes in their families, sometimes they come from unbelieving backgrounds – um, at college, with younger girls, and that really is the vision of how do we begin to ask the question: what does it look like to make disciples right where you’re at? Because like we said, you can do it with anyone, anywhere, um, and that’s what I want to talk to my girls about.

Jack: That’s so good. Well, it really does reflect John 17 – Jesus’s prayer and His modeling to his men – and I think it’s exciting to see you do that as well, Abby, with your girls. So, thank you again for your time and we’ll wrap it up at this point.

Jack: We’ve learned today some of the keys to how to disciple Millennials and Gen Z – moving from understanding foundational truths of their generations to how to actually reach them where they are individually, in their unique context and climate. Abby shared the importance of setting high expectations, being authentic and consistently committed to the everyday lives of those we’re discipling. But most importantly, Abby shared some keys to how she listens to the Holy Spirit as she prepares to meet with Millennials and Gen Z, leaning into His wisdom and how that leads to winning people to Christ, not ourselves.

We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode, learning community and feel encouraged and better equipped! If Millennials and Gen Z is a topic you’re enjoying learning more about, we’ve got two other podcast episodes you don’t want to miss! Podcast 008: “Leading the Next (and Now) Generation of Disciplers with Mark Heffentrager (Director of Eagle Lake Camps) and Podcast 011: “Foundational Truths You Need to Know About Gen Z and Millennials (from a “we” perspective)” with Abby Anderson (which is part one in this series) are great resources on this topic!

For more on The Apprentice Approach, including the full transcript of this podcast, resources, our blog, and to sign up for emails, visit our website TheApprenticeApproach.org , and if you haven’t subscribed to The Apprentice Approach Podcast in iTunes, do it today!

And let me encourage you to share this with a friend!

Until next time, this is your host, Jack McQueeney, believing God for generations of men and women like you!

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Blog 27 How to Be More Like Jesus in Asking Questions (Bible Study)

Are you ready to grow as a disciplemaker who asks good questions, like Jesus? This blog takes a look at a number of questions Jesus asked and invites you to investigate further. (This can also be a great resource to do with the person you are discipling.)


In his book Curious, Tom Hughes points out that in the Gospels, Jesus is asked 183 questions. Do you know how many He answers? Only four. The other questions He responds to with another question, a parable, or a cryptic remark. Do you know how many questions Jesus Himself asks? 307! Hughes goes on to point out that “we can slide into thinking that Jesus is interested in always and only ensuring that we have the right answers. The reality turns out to be somewhat different. He seems more interested in ensuring that we are considering the right questions.”

Jesus was a Master at asking great questions – the kind of questions people answered; the kind of questions that prompted self-awareness; the kind of questions that led to repentance, forgiveness, and abundant Life. So, how can we be more like Jesus as we lead and disciple? How – instead of jumping in with opinions and ‘right answers’ – can we begin to ask great questions that lead to the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

Here is a simple, short Bible Study you can do to grow as a disciplemaker who asks good questions, like Jesus. This can also be a great resource to do with the person you are discipling to develop them and prepare them to be a disciple who makes disciples.

Instructions:

  1. Choose a question from the below list.
  2. Consider: do you have any emotional response to the question before you do any study on it? Why do you respond this way? How would you answer?
  3. Read its surrounding context (the verses before and after the question).
  4. Note: Who is Jesus talking to? Where are they talking? What prompted their conversation?
  5. Consider: What prompted Jesus asking His question? Was there an “obvious” answer He could have given instead? Why do you think He chose this question to ask?
  6. Consider: How does the person respond to Jesus’ question? What deeper thinking about faith/God’s character/the person’s identity does His question encourage?
  7. Explore: Is there a situation similar to this one somewhere else in the Bible? Where else does Jesus ask a similar question, or give an answer to the question He asks? Is there somewhere else in the Bible that answers the question Jesus asks? Maybe look up the provided “Cross-references to consider.”
  8. Consider: After taking time to study this question, now how would you answer?
  9. Pray: Is there a specific situation Jesus wants to ask this question to you? Is there a place you can apply what you’ve learned to your own life, either in the way you think of God’s character, the way you think of your identity as a child of God, or in the way you act towards others?

Jesus’ Questions (in no particular order):

            We’ve given suggested cross-references for the first five questions to help you get started!

“What do you want me to do for you?” (Luke 18:41)

  • Cross-references to consider: Isaiah 7:10-13, Matthew 7:7-12, James 1:5, 1 John 5:14-15

“Do you believe that I am able to do this?” (Matthew 9:28)

  • Cross-references to consider: Mark 9:23-25, James 1:6, Hebrews 11:1

“Why are you so afraid?” (Matthew 8:26)

  • Cross-references to consider: 1 John 4:18, Isaiah 41:10, Joshua 1:9

“Do you love me?” (John 21:17)

  • Cross-references to consider: John 14:21, John 15:9-17, 1 John 3:16

“Who do you say that I am?” (Mark 8:29)

  • Cross-references to consider: Hebrews 11:1, Philippians 2:5-11, 1 Timothy 2:5

“Do you want to get well?” (John 5:6)

“Who touched me?” (Mark 5:30)

“Why did you doubt?” (Matthew 14:31)

“Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes by fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember…?” (Mark 8:17-18)

“Are you also going to leave?” (John 6:66-67)

“Do not the unbelievers do the same?” (Matthew 5:47)

“Why are you anxious about clothes?” (Matthew 6:28)

“Why do you notice the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” (Matthew 7:3)

“How many loaves do you have?” (Matthew 15:34)

“Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign?” (Mark 8:12)

“Do you see anything?” (Mark 8:23)

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “Who do you read it?” (Luke 10:26)

“…who will trust you with true riches?” (Luke 16:11)




Blog 026 The Art of Invitation

It sounds so simple on the surface, but the art of invitation is an incredibly difficult skill to master, especially if it doesn’t come naturally.

As we’ve talked about discipleship, especially in discipling Millennials and Gen Z-ers, we’ve mentioned repeatedly the importance of approaching and initiating with an invitation. And repeatedly, we’ve been asked, “How?”

Well, let’s take a look at Jesus – who was the master of invitation! There’s a passage in John 4: Jesus’ Approach to the Woman at the Well that we’ve found helpful to see how Jesus invited someone into deeper relationship with him. Here are 7 principles from John 4 to help you build relationships through invitation using Jesus’ approach:

  1. Jesus is unconcerned by the reactions of others at whom He chooses to minister to.

In John 4:1, we learn that Jesus has just discovered that the Pharisees are comparing how many disciples Jesus is baptizing to how many John is. Instead of allowing His ministry to turn into a competition, or exalting in the public “proof” of His ministry’s “success”, He amazingly chooses to leave the region altogether and travel through Samaria. (Note: we know that because Jesus was omniscient, He chose to move His ministry to a despised minority instead of continuing to thrive with the population everyone wanted to claim.)

Application: Reflect on the ways you may/may not be comparing your personal ministry with people? Is there anything you need to change? Is there a new direction God is calling you to?

  1. Jesus puts Himself in the path of those He wants to reach.

In 4:6, we learn that Jesus was weary from His journey, yet in His omniscience, He knew that this was the best place for Him to reach the Woman. He didn’t self-protect to recharge: He very intentionally and quite literally set Himself in her path.

Application: Think through times you’re tempted to pull back instead of pressing in to relationships. List the ways you can be more intentional about putting yourself in the path of those God is calling you. Does anything need to change in order to “get in the path” of others?

  1. He initiates in a way that gives the people he meets with self-worth.

In 4:7, we see that He doesn’t wait for her to approach Him; He initiates by asking a question. Moreover, the question He asks — “Will you give me a drink?” (NIV) — provides her with a sense of self-worth on two levels. First, Jews of that day not only didn’t normally associate with Samaritans, they also would never have even used the same dish as a Samaritan because it would make them “unclean”. By asking for a drink, Jesus is saying He doesn’t see her as beneath him, dirty, unworthy or too undeserving of notice. Second, He gave her an opportunity to serve. According to modern psychology, you’re more likely to get people to like you by asking them for a favor over offering to help them because it makes them feel needed, wanted, or important. By asking her for a drink, He’s acknowledging her value and the fact that she not only has something to offer, but can choose whether or not to give it to Him.

Application: The Bible is clear that we each have a part to play in the Kingdom work of Christ (1 Corth 12: 12-27). List the attributes you appreciate about those you are discipling/influencing – is there an area you can be more vulnerable in your own life and invite them to use their giftings?

  1. He meets those He ministers to where they’re at.

In 4:13-14, we see Jesus answer the woman’s question not by going off into high homiletics, but by explaining the Gospel of Himself in terms she not only would quickly and easily understand, but be intrigued by.

Application: Think through the last few conversations you’ve had about spiritual things. Do you automatically jump to high-level theology, or are you able to keep the conversation at the level of the other person’s spiritual background? Brainstorm some illustrations that you could use to explain theological topics in simple, understandable ways.

  1. He makes His Gospel message (the Good News of Himself) the central message.

Again, when she brings up theological differences, we see in 4:13-14, 21, and 26 that He doesn’t go into philosophical truths, but brings the conversation back again and again to Himself and what He offers.

Application: Where are you easily distracted from the main Gospel message by topics that aren’t essential to the Gospel? Pray through ways you can lay those down and keep Jesus the main topic of conversation.

  1. He addresses sin.

We see in 4:16-18 that He doesn’t ignore the Woman’s sinful lifestyle and He doesn’t pretend it’s okay. But neither does He call down fire and brimstone on her: he addresses her sin without condemnation. He knows that she can never have true peace or joy apart from Himself, so in love He speaks the truth to her in a way that doesn’t turn her away from Him but draws her into even deeper conversation.

Application: Do you struggle to feel comfortable with addressing the sin of another? Pray through Matthew 18:15-17 and Galatians 6:1, especially asking the Father to give you wisdom, gentleness, and the ability to talk to the person, not about the person.  Interested in how others have done this? Check out our Podcast 11, “Foundational Truths You Need to Know About Millennials and Gen Z”, to hear how one of our friends is forging ahead in discipling the next generation!

  1. He lets people walk away.

It’s easy to feel like we fail if someone doesn’t make that “final decision”; however, we don’t know how God will continue to work in hearts. Jesus knew His words would keep working: the Woman went home and told many others about Him! So, too, must we continue to initiate, but then let the person we are pursuing have the freedom to walk away: to think, to explore, to even say no to what we’re sharing. All we’re called to do is be faithful stewards with the conversation we’re given.

Application: Want to know more about how Jesus initiated conversation and invited people in? Check out next week’s blog and resource, created around the questions Jesus Himself asks!